1897 Winchester for Home Defense

[tkcomer]

Hey all. Looking at buying a simple shotgun for the wife for home defense. I'm looking at the Interstate Arms reproduction of the 1897 Winchester. My wife is extremely nervous about keeping a round in the chamber and trying to fiddle with the safety at night in the dark. So I thought the '97 would be a good alternative. Keep a round in the chamber with the hammer down and all you have to do is pull the hammer back when you want to fire the gun. Stupidly simple. Is this a good idea? She loves lever guns so my way of thinking this would be an easy gun to operate for her.

 

[Fuller Malarky]

They kick like a mule. Is she stout enough to handle recoil and manage additional shots if needed? On a side note, I consider the model 97 to be the most dangerous weapon on my property. I have experienced a few "unplanned discharges" from model 97's when the hammer slipped off half cock. Maybe the repro's have this worked out. YMMV.

Simple and safe is a tang safety on a Mossberg. Forward to fire. That can be comprehended in the largest of adrenaline rushes. Hammers can slip in the same scenario, putting the round into the kids bedroom, rather than down the hall at the BG. YMMV.

 

[tkcomer]

The Mossberg is what I have now and she's still nervous with it. I keep the action cracked with the tube loaded so all she has to do is rack the slide. She can handle the recoil. I'd let her practice with low power loads and stick the buckshot in for home defense. I don't think these guns could take a lot of heavy loads anyway. The hammer slipping had not occurred to me. I've never seen her do that with the lever guns or the revolvers.

 

[rcmodel]

Is this a good idea?

NO. Keeping a round in the chamber is a bad idea.

What you are doing now, with the mag full and the chamber empty, with the action lock released is by far the safest way to store a loaded shotgun.

That way, when you wake up in a panic and grab it by the barrel to pick it up, you don't have a loaded shotgun pointed at your chest!

You can pump a round into the chamber in less time then it took me to type this.
WHile you get your thoughts sorted out and gain control of the way it is pointed.

rc

 

[zhyla]

Keep a round in the chamber with the hammer down

I'm not greatly familiar with this shotgun but this involves lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber, yes? I don't like this, I think it's a great way to have an accidental discharge. Do it enough times and your finger may slip.

 

[Fuller Malarky]

The two "unplanned discharges" I have experienced with model 97's happened when there was no hand or finger on the receiver of the shotgun. I have been present and witnessed two other model 97's discharge "unplanned". Once, a hunting buddy was lowering the hammer after ducks flew out of range. He lowered the hammer, and brought the shotgun from shoulder to his waist. A second later the gun went off. It was pointed straight ahead into a swamp, no harm done.

The next time, a friend set his model 97 down butt first, leaning the barrel against a fence post. Kaboom. Neither of these guys are anyones fool when it comes to handling firearms. Since the early 70's, I have taken four model 97's to gunsmiths for reliable safety checkups. Each gunsmith told me the same thing....great guns for the guy who hunts alone.

The 97 is not a simple shotgun. Cimarron Firearms, which distributes 97 repro's, states in it's instruction manual NOT TO CARRY THE SHOTGUN WITH A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER.

To place the shotgun on "safe", you release the hammer by holding the hammer with your thumb and squeezing the trigger. The idea is to lower the hammer to the half cock position, where it "should" rest. Sometimes it doesn't. It may slip off half cock immediately, or a little bit later when you least expect it. Either way, the outcome is the same...an unintended discharge. While it is true that 1911's, revolvers, lever action rifles have a similar design as far as having a hammer and the process of "safe-ing" the firearm, the '97 has an earned reputation for accidental discharges, far and above the other firearms combined. Not a firearm for folks with ADD or limited attention spans, or in the midst of an adrenaline dump. Compare the width of the 97's receiver with other hammered weapons, examine the smaller hammer. These lend to some complexity in operation.

 

[tkcomer]

Allrighty then. This is a bad idea. Thanks for the info before I made a mistake.

 

[Billy Shears]

There's nothing wrong with the '97 for home defense; I have one sitting in my closet right now for that purpose. Don't leave the chamber loaded, though. I don't know why you would ever have gotten the idea to so that anyway. If you wake up in the middle of the night, and have to cope with darkness, with suddenly clawing your way up out of sleep, and with the adrenaline dump that you will undergo if you have a lethal encounter to deal with, you will be able to rack the slide by grasping that generous forward grip a hell of a lot easier than you would be able to locate that little hammer spur. It will be both quicker and more positive, not to mention a lot safer.

As for the tale of the accidental discharges on this thread... I think those stories almost certainly involve guns with worn internals. I've used the hell out of mine, and I've certainly never had such problems. Cowboy action shooters are using them in carload lots these days as well, both originals and repros, and we are not hearing about any indordinate number of ADs from these guns.

Bear in mind, some of these guns are old, and have seen many decades of hard use. Mine was made in 1916. It needed a new hammer when I got it because the notch was worn and it could slip off full cock and fire. But that was a worn out hammer, not a design flaw in the gun. A new hammer completely cured the problem. A Model 97 in good shape, with any worn out parts replaced, won't be especially more prone to negligent discharges than any other gun, provided you don't handle it like a knucklehead. Remember, the most important safety device is between your ears.

 

[JNewell]

I don't know for a fact, but I would not be surprised if the firing pin is in contact with both the primer and the hammer if you lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. If that is how the 1897 is designed, you have an extremely dangerous condition (which the half cock notch was designed to avoid).

 

[CSA 357]

i love the 97 winchester, but its as dangerous as a monkey with a chainsaw!

 

[tkcomer]

Yeah, I had this bright idea that I'd leave it loaded with the hammer down. Figured it was like the old time guns. Long as ya didn't drop it on the hammer you were good to go. I saw on the website that it had improvements to the safety. Thought that might be a transition bar. My bad.

 

[ReloaderFred]

First, I'm not going to dispute that accidental discharges happen with the Model 97, or with any other firearm, since I've seen them happen with way too many different kinds of firearms during the approximately 50 years I've been shooting and instructing. I made my living for awhile instructing, but that still doesn't make me a professional.....

With that said, I currently own 6 original Model 97's and my wife owns 2, both original. Her guns are solid frame guns, with the one she uses in monthly matches being made in 1899 and her backup gun made in 1906. She prefers the solid frame guns because the reach to the forearm is about 1" shorter than the takedown guns. My guns range from 1912 to 1954 in vintage and include one Black Diamond Trap model.

All our guns have been disassembled and completely inspected and CLEANED. The emphasis is on cleaning, since every one of our guns had years and years of caked in oil and residue all over the internals when we bought them. Some were so caked up they would hardly work at all, but after scraping the gunk out, oiling and reassembling, they work great.

It's the caked in gunk that causes problems, not only with the Model 97, but with any old firearm. We've never had an accidental discharge with any of our Model 97's, and we've put thousands of rounds through them in Cowboy Action Shooting matches. We also shoot with a whole bunch of other SASS shooters using Model 97's, both original and reproduction, and we've never witnessed an accidental discharge with any of these guns, and I'm talking about a whole bunch of guns. We've shot in several End of Trail matches, Winter Range, numerous different state matches, plus monthly matches at our own club and other clubs. End of Trail will have anywhere between 600 and 800 shooters from all over the world, as will Winter Range, and well over half of them will be shooting Model 97's.

As with any other mechanical device, they have to be maintained. That means cleaning out all the gunk from the places it builds up, including the sear notch. They also have to be inspected for wear, and if the sear notch is worn, it needs to be attended to by a competent gunsmith. That means one who is familiar with the Model 97, not some guy working off his kitchen table and calling himself a gunsmith.

With due care, the Model 97 is a great gun. I don't think I would want a novice using one for home defense, though. It doesn't have a trigger disconnect, which means that if the trigger is depressed when the action is pumped, and a round is loaded into the chamber, then it's going to discharge as soon as the bolt locks up. An experienced shooter will use this to slam fire the shotgun as fast as they can work the action, but an inexperienced shooter "may" shoot when they don't intend to.

My suggestion would be either your Mossberg or a Remington Model 870, which is what my wife and I have for a house gun.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[CeilingCat]

I have to agree with Fred. I just finished cleaning my '97 today. I must have removed 4# of dirt and grime out of it. This included gunk that was in the sear notches that could prevent it from staying half-cocked. I mistook the trigger spring for a roll-pin initially. Everything moves so smoothly now!

 

[CeilingCat]

Double post!

 

[Messenger Guard]

Standard operating procedure at all police departments and armored truck company's is called "cruiser ready". The magazine is loaded, the chamber is empty, and the safety is off. There is no way a weapon in this condition can fire but it can readily be made to fire even in a groggy half asleep state. This being said, I have witnessed in my years on the planet a Remington 870 and a Winchester Model 12 fire upon racking the shell into the breach without a finger near the trigger. Both guns were old and may not have had the best cleaning or maintenance. It just reaffirmed my belief in always maintaining good muzzle control. It appears that maybe your wife needs to become more friendly to using the weapon. Maybe date night could become date day with a matinee movie and a trip to the range after. The more she uses the weapon the more she will attain a comfort level.

 

[Daniel Rando]

Extreamly Nervous and a bb gun dont go hand n hand . I put my wife threw a first shot program, and then a conceiled carry class then id get her behind some autos starting with a .45 (ouch) then put her on the .40 hopefully this step down will be enough shell be ok with it if not get her the 9mm and let her practice empting the clip asap on man paper my wife shoots a cz-po-1 with crimson trace which is all a confidence booster Honestly though I wouldnt touch a shotgun until she builds some confidence on site and I would soreously consider a Glock .I don't own one but here there really safe and great on point., accuracy before beauty. God Bless and Sleep Well -dr

 

[Dave McCracken]

I like 97s but like the 1911 they require a little more training and familiarization than some other tools. Not the best choice for a new/occasional shooter,IMO.

Also, for a defensive shotgun, I prefer an empty chamber for long term storage.

 

[AJumbo]

97s and 1911s are "aficionado" firearms; they can be used as safely and efficiently as any firearm, but the user needs a lot of familiarization and training. That being said, my 97 is my nightstand gun. The magazine is full, the buttcuff is full, the chamber is empty. Chambering a round takes no time, and can't sound good to a home invader.

TK- you twice referred to "lever guns" in your posts- you know the 97 is a pump, right? I could be reading your words incorrectly, pardon me if that's the case. Either way, perhaps your wife can learn to love the Mossberg.

If ever a firearm could benefit from having a transfer bar, the 97 is it. The hammer is cocked by the rearward motion of the bolt; the bolt actually rides over the spur of the hammer, which eventually wears all the knurling off the hammer. If the hammer needs to be lowered on a live round, any fluid that gets on the spur- oil, sweat, blood, whatever- makes the process a potential hazard.

 

[CSA 357]

i was almost killed by a 1897 winchester, a few years latter same thing with the same gun a tree limb caught the hammer pulling it back this time and went off drew blood but no one killed great old guns i even had one for a while that i hunted with , just be carefull!

 

[Fuego]

There is no simpler shotgun than a double barrel. I have a Stoeger coach gun that is worth every cent I paid for it. I keep a butt-cuff loaded, but no ammo in the chambers.

I have never felt like I needed to load any faster than pulling a couple of shells out of that butt-cuff.

 

[Bill B.]

they can be used as safely and efficiently as any firearm, but the user needs a lot of familiarization and training.

Truer words were never spoken! To me they are no more dangerous than an 870 or a Mossy 500 but I will be the first to admit that unless one has used them in other applications there is better choices for HD.

 

[tkcomer]

I'm sure glad I asked about this gun before I bought it. I did mentioned lever actions, but what what I was trying to imply, the wife is more comfortable with external hammer type guns. Rifles or pistols. Hammer down, gun is safe. Need to fire, thumb the hammer back. The more I think about it, the lack of a disconnector would be a bad idea. If she ever fired the gun and jacked the slide, she may accidentally fire it again. In the end, I may have to let her have one of my revolvers. It's no good to have a gun she's afraid of and probably won't use.

 

[Bill B.]

the wife is more comfortable with external hammer type guns

If that's the case get her one of the reproduction double barrel coach guns with external hammers. Any Cowboy Action supplier would be a good place to start and the price would be close to that of a repo 97.

 

[tkcomer]

Wouldn't leaving the hammer down on a loaded double barrel be as dangerous as doing the same with the '97?

 

[Bill B.]

Wouldn't leaving the hammer down on a loaded double barrel be as dangerous as doing the same with the '97?

Actually depends on the double. Some of the hammer doubles actually have a safety that has to be worked in addition to the hammer block safety built into the hammers. I have know some that stored a hammer coach gun broke open with the hammers cocked and unloaded with the ammo at hand to where it could be loaded at a moments notice. I would prefer to have the double where the wife could get it quickly broke open with the ammo with it but not in the chambers myself. I do keep a Win. 97 for HD and it's loaded in the mag. only hammer down ready to rack. This works for me but may not for others. First and foremost any shotgun stored with a loaded round in the chamber is dangerous. Second even if you get a Rem. 870 or Mossy 500 they are still dangerous with a round in the chamber. Any loaded gun is dangerous .........it all comes down to how much you train with it and making yourself familiar with it's operation that lessens the risk to your self and others but there is always risk involved.