1902 - How Did I Do?

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Waveski

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In a previous thread several forum members expanded my knowledge regarding the differences between the Smith and Wesson models of 1902 and 1905. With that accomplished , I am asking the old question : How did I do on value?

Replacement grips aside , the cosmetic condition is fairly good , free of pitting. Bore is shiny . lock up is very good , end shake virtually non-existant. The barrel is 6 1/2" and carries the 38 S&W SPECIAL & U.S. SERVICE CTG"S markings.

I paid $250 for this model of 1902. Bit of an impulse buy. How did I do?
 

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You did fine. Also reproduction, period correct stocks are available and not particularly expensive. Do be aware that the cylinder is not heat treated, and that this model lacks a positive hammer block safety.

Should you decide to shoot it, use 148 grain mid-range wadcutter or other ammunition specifically assembled for the Cowboy Action Shooting games where downloaded cartridges are used to help preserve knock-down targets. Also always carry the hammer down on an empty chamber.

Given its age, it should be consider to primarily be a relic, but a valuable one that keeps going up.

Incidentally, if you want to improve the double-action trigger pull simply substitute a current K-frame mainspring for the heavier one that's now in it. No alterations or "tuning" of the revolver is necessary, and the original spring can always be restored in it. Same advise applies to your other 1910 era .38 Military & Police revolver.
 
Old Fuff -

Please elaborate on the lack of positive hammer block safety. I have worked the (unloaded) action while holding the revolver up to the light in profile. When I ease the hammer down , with trigger drawn back , I see the firing pin move forward into position to strike a primer. Then , upon releasing the trigger , I observe the hammer move back and the firing pin retreat into the recess. The hammer then cannot be pushed forward. Is this safety mechanism not sufficient to make it safe with a loaded charge hole under the hammer? I am not arguing against your advice , only trying to expand my understanding of the 1902 mechanism.

As to the grips , I have decided that the small Magnas will match up nicely with a Tyler T Grip. Since I am already non- original in terms of the grips I would like to make this old revolver fit my hand better. I have the satisfaction of enjoying a fine set of original grips on my 1905 model.
 
The hammer block safety is a moving piece of metal that physically intervenes between the hammer and the frame when the trigger is not held back, preventing any sort of mishap. It came about after a S&W revolver was dropped on a steel deck from one or two decks above. The force of the blow sheared the existing "safety" and a round discharged, killing a sailor. Not sure how the sailor would have fared if the revolver merely hit him from the dropped height but the safety was mandated. Lot's of folks worry bout carrying 5 or six rounds in the old style.

Kevin
 
The OP did real good on that gun. I tend not to buy revolvers that old - in part because 100 year old revolvers aren't usually in as good shape as 50 year old revolvers, in part because the metal (or metalurgy) isn't quite the quality that it is on later guns, like from the late 1950's on. But occasionally, you find a nice one. You should shoot it, but I agree with Old Fuff that only milder loads should be used. As he said, cowboy loads should be fine...and pretty commonplace. Have fun!
 
What you observe when the trigger is released is the action of the hammer rebound lever, which is separate from a hammer block safety. That gun has the old style rebound lever as shown by the head of the pin 3/4 inch or so below the thumbpiece. That system was later (Model 1905, First Change) replaced by the rebound slide essentially as it is today.

A rebound system is necessary in a side swing revolver; if the hammer did not rebound, the firing pin would remain in the primer and keep the cylinder from opening.

But the rebound system is not enough to prevent the gun from firing if there is a round under the hammer and the hammer is dealt a hard enough blow or the gun dropped on the hammer spur. For that protection, S&W adopted what is called a hammer block safety a few years later, but it was not "positive", being depended for its action on springs. During WWII they installed a very positive type that is still in use. (Other revolver makers use what is called a transfer bar for the same purpose, but that is not relevant here.)

Jim
 
Waveski: You paid less than the current going rate for a beat up, double action only, ex security Model 10 or 64 and maybe $100 more than a knowledgeable person will pay for a bored out, chopped barrel, British service revolver with the oversize chambers from conversion to .38 Special from .38 S&W.

I think you did well.
 
Howdy

For $250 I'd say you did very well.

Here are a couple of photos of my Model of 1899 that may help you understand how the rebounding hammer on your Model 1902 works.

This photo represents the condition of the revolver after a shot has been fired. The hammer is all the way down. My finger is holding the trigger back. The part the arrow points to is the rebound lever. Notice there is a space under the front of the rebound lever.

1899%20hammer%20down%20with%20arrow_zpsafinhrcy.jpg



In this photo I have released the trigger. You can see the trigger spring has flexed and rotated the rebound lever slightly clockwise. In doing so, the bump at the top of the rebound lever has rocked the hammer back slightly, enough to withdraw the firing pin into the frame.

1899%20hammer%20at%20rest%20with%20arrow_zpsfuvuywqr.jpg



This Model 1905 from 1908 incorporates the newer rebound slide design. In this at rest position, the rebound slide spring (you can see it peeking out through the slot in the rebound slide) has shoved the rebound slide all the way forward. In this condition, the bump at the top of the Rebound slide has rocked the hammer back slightly, an arrow indicates the gap between the hammer and the frame. When the hammer is cocked, or the trigger pulled, a strut pinned to the trigger will shove the Rebound Slide back, so that when the hammer falls it will clear that bump, allowing it to fall all the way.

38%20MampP%20mechanism%20with%20arrows_zpsxzluscv5.jpg



This was the design S&W stayed with for several years. There was no physical hammer block at all in these guns, it was felt that the rebounding hammer was safe enough. Certainly, it was safer than the old Single Action revolvers of the 19th Century. Most of them had a so called 'safety cock' notch on the hammer, so the hammer could be locked back slightly with the firing pin withdrawn into the frame. However the parts in a Single Action revolver are quite thin and fragile. So it was well known that a blow to the hammer with a Single Action revolver would probably cause the gun to discharge.

Here are the parts to a Colt Single Action Army. One arrow points to the so called 'safety cock' notch in the hammer, the other arrow points to the sear. Notice how thin the sear is. If it is seated in the safety cock notch, a strong blow to the hammer will easily shear the sear right off the trigger, and the hammer will go forward and can fire a primer in a cartridge under the hammer. The rebounding hammer on a S&W double action revolver was certainly stronger than that.

interiorpartswitharrows.jpg



At some point, S&W decided the rebounding hammer was not enough to guarantee a discharge in the event of a strong blow to the hammer. The section of the hammer where the rebound slide contacts it could shear if the blow was heavy enough, or the stud the hammer rotates on could even break. So they added a hammer block to the design.

This 38-44 Heavy Duty was made in 1930 and it has a hammer block. The hammer block is the long thin piece sitting in a groove in the side plate.

reassembled.jpg



The hammer block is a piece of spring steel. It is staked in place in its slot in the side plate. The spring action of the hammer block will keep it positioned so that the projection at its top will fit in between the hammer and the frame, preventing the hammer from falling all the way, even if struck. The arrow points to a tab on the hammer block, and the other arrow points to a ramp on the pawl. When the trigger moved, in either single or double action, the ramp on the pawl would act against the tab on the hammer block, depressing the hammer block into its slot in the side plate, and withdrawing it from intervening between the hammer and the frame.

triggerandsideplatewitharrows.jpg

This is the type of hammer block that S&W built into all their revolvers for quite a few years, until the incident that killed the sailor during WWII. An inquiry determined that something had prevented the spring action of the hammer block from acting properly, probably heavy cosmoline inside the action, and the hammer block had gotten stuck in the withdrawn position, allowing something to break inside when the hammer hit the deck, discharging the revolver.

The military demanded rapid corrective action, and S&W quickly came up with a new hammer block design.



This is the new hammer block that S&W came up with. The hammer block rides in a slot in the side plate. The hammer block is a stamped part, and the top is twisted and bent at a right angle. The bent portion fits between the hammer and the frame. A pin was added to the rebound slide. The pin rests in the slanted slot in the hammer block. When the rebound slide moves back, the pin drags the hammer block down in its slot, clearing the hammer to fall all the way. When the trigger is released and the rebound slide springs forward, the hammer block is pushed up again, blocking the hammer from falling all the way. Notice there is a small space between the hammer block and the hammer. The hammer never actually contacts the hammer block, unless there is a failure.

44%20hand%20ejector%204th%20model%20hammer%20block%20with%20arrows_zpsfnytav6r.jpg


This is the same type of hammer block that S&W still installs in all their revolvers. It is a very proven design. It has been said that the old design was not very positive, relying on the spring action of the hammer block, and that was why it failed. I would add at this point that although the modern hammer block is more positive than the old design, it still relies on a spring for it to function. However the rebound slide spring is a very strong spring, and has proved more reliable over the years than the old design.
 
Howdy

For $250 I'd say you did very well.

Here are a couple of photos of my Model of 1899 that may help you understand how the rebounding hammer on your Model 1902 works.

This photo represents the condition of the revolver after a shot has been fired. The hammer is all the way down. My finger is holding the trigger back. The part the arrow points to is the rebound lever. Notice there is a space under the front of the rebound lever.

What a great post! Thank you very much.
 
What more could I ask for? That pictorial tutorial is EXCELLENT! Thank you.

My wife just told me that I need to acquire an old revolver to disassemble and learn from. I always do as I am told.
 
Waveski

Nice vintage S&W you got there and at a great price! Especially like the round butt configuration. Let us know how it fares at the range.
 
Howdy Again

If you want to learn about taking a S&W revolver apart, buy this book. It is the best book on the market. It covers Smiths of all the different frame sizes. Much more than just how to take one apart, it is a real Shop Manuel full of gunsmithing information.

http://www.gunbooks.com/sw.html

You can also buy it at MidwayUSA, but all the money goes to the author if you buy it from this site. Amazon carries it too, but they seem to be charging a lot more for it. By the way, this is a new edition since mine was published, I see there is new information in it and I think I will order the new edition.

Unfortunately, this book does not cover the earlier 1899 an 1902 designs.



This book has detailed take down instructions of many old firearms, including the Model 1899 and 1902 Smith and Wessons. It is not really a gunsmithing book, just an assembly/disassembly manual for many, many old guns, although it does have some general information about gunsmithing.

Both are very good and should be in any gun butcher's library.


http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=157942&MANF=1011

You can also find this one at Amazon. Midway does not seem to carry it. The author died recently, and I think this book is out of print, but there seem to be plenty of copies around.

The very first thing you need to know about taking a S&W revolver apart is DO NOT TRY TO PRY THE SIDEPLATE OFF!!! If you find an old Smith that has pry marks around the sideplate, somebody did not know the proper way to remove it. The Kuhnhausen book has good illustrations of how to remove the sideplate. You remove the grips, and all the screws holding the sideplate in place. Remove the cylinder too. Then, holding the gun in the palm of your hand, with your thumb lightly resting on the sideplate, strike the grip frame with the handle of a hammer. The wooden handle, not the metal end. I did this photo in a real hurry, I did not have a photo of a Smith with the grips and cylinder removed. But after having removed the grips, screws, and cylinder, strike the grip frame along a line described by the two arrows. As you strike the frame, the sideplate will start to rise out of the frame. Keep your thumb on it to keep it from popping out onto the floor. How many strikes it will take will vary with the gun, but the sideplate will rise up and once it is free you can grab it and pull it straight up. Then refer to your book to continue with disassembly.

MP%20target%2001%20with%20arrows_zpsokk5ibxo.jpg
 
Mr Johnson , Thank you again.

A couple of days ago I was holding my new/old Smith in my hands , scratching my head. Now I understand the difference between , and function of , a rebound bar vs a rebound slide. I also understand that a rebound mechanism is not a hammer safety per say , as the spring responsible for rebound can be overcome. On top of that I have an inkling as to how to properly remove a side plate.

I am grateful to all who responded to my inquiries.

A final question : For about 2 years I owned 1 K-frame , a K38 Combat Masterpiece. , and I was satisfied that the K frame niche was filled. In the past few months I have acquired 2 early M&Ps and a first year issue K22. 4 K frames and I am not content. Q: What do I do now???
 
Subscribed:
another quality Driftwood Johnson thread! Thanks Waveski for sharing your recent bargain, and to Mr. Johnson for yet another high quality tutorial. Somebody oughta compile your tutorials into a book for beginner revolver enthusiasts :)
 
4 K frames and I am not content. Q: What do I do now???
Go find a few Model 19 and M66 variants. They made 'em in 2.5, 4, & 6 inch bbl with gorgeous blue, nickel, and stainless (M66) finishes. Aim for the pre-80s runs as you will appreciate the pinned bbl and recessed chambers. Just my $0.02 :D
 
........and I was satisfied that the K frame niche was filled.

HA!

Abandon hope all ye who enter here.

The K frame niche is never filled. Neither is the N frame niche, or I frame niche. For some reason I don't care too much about J frames, and I certainly don't care about L frames.

Every time I swear to myself that I am not going to buy another K frame, something comes along and tempts me. A nice 5" M&P with beautiful original Service grips, a pristine Model 14-3, a nice old 4" M&P with a curved grip frame, a pristine K-22 Combat Masterpiece, there is always something that comes along and calls my name. And weakling that I am, I usually give in.

And that's not to mention all the terrific N frames that call my name. And I frames. And Top Breaks. And Tip Ups. And let's not even get started on Colts.

I suggest you buy a copy of the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson, by Supica and Nahas. You can find it on Amazon. The absolutely most comprehensive book ever published about Smith and Wesson firearms. Open the book and start browsing. Don't sit down and read it, just start browsing to start to get an understanding of the tremendous breadth of products that S&W has manufactured since 1857. Let the book be your guide about what direction you want your collection to go. (Yes, you are a collector, or an acquirer anyway)

You may have entered into a whole new chapter of your life.

I also suggest you register and hang out at the Smith and Wesson Forum.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/

Lots to learn there, lots of knowledgeable guys who can give you factual answers to your questions.

Good Luck.

And don't go grabbing any nice Five Screw Smiths that I haven't seen yet.
 
The Standard Catalog has a lot of info and I recommend it. But real S&W fans should try to get a copy of Neal & Jinks Smith & Wesson - 1856-1945. It gives all the literally "inside" info on the guns in the time frame it covers, including X-ray photos. It is invaluable.

Jim
 
Howdy

I agree the Neal and Jinks book, Smith & Wesson 1857-1945 is a great book, and the X-Ray views are cool. But for the beginner I like the layout of the SCSW better. Easier to follow along to see the evolution of the designs.

Just my opinion.
 
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