1911, 1911 clone, 1911 lookalike, compact 1911, etc

[The Good]

I think we all know a 1911 when we see one, but I wonder if there are more specific criteria that make a gun a true 1911. So i have a few questions to assist you in helping me out:
1. Explain what a 1911 is to a guy who is familiar with plenty of other guns, their basic operation, and basic disassembly, but has never seen or fired a 1911
2. Are there any guns on the market that you think could be rasily mistaken for a 1911 by someone who knows them by looks alone?
3. Is a subcompact 1911 a 1911, or just a little gun based on the 1911?
4. Is a 9mm 1911 a 1911 or just a 9mm that looks like a 1911?

 

[burrhead]

You may want to start your research by learning the differences between a 1911 and a 1911-a1. The only recent 1911s offered that I know of were some repos made by Colt.

Real 1911's haven't been made since (I think) 1922.

Splitting hairs I know, but you've asked a LOT of questions that a little research will point you toward being able to ask the right questions.

 

[tarosean]

A M1911 was produced from 1911 to 1926

Everything else is based on a M1911A1

 

[burrhead]

I'm regularly wrong but I thought US&S only made A1s and I know Singer didn't make 1911s.

 

[Furncliff]

Colt 1911A1 Animation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6SmlOEzNBs&feature=player_embedded#at=16

 

[burrhead]

Here's a good link for Government contractors of 1911s and 1911-A1.

http://www.coolgunsite.com/collectors_guide.htm

 

[tarosean]

I'm regularly wrong but I thought US&S only made A1s and I know Singer didn't make 1911s.

I my haste to post. You are more correct than I am

 

[2wheels]

I think we all know a 1911 when we see one, but I wonder if there are more specific criteria that make a gun a true 1911. So i have a few questions to assist you in helping me out:
1. Explain what a 1911 is to a guy who is familiar with plenty of other guns, their basic operation, and basic disassembly, but has never seen or fired a 1911
2. Are there any guns on the market that you think could be rasily mistaken for a 1911 by someone who knows them by looks alone?
3. Is a subcompact 1911 a 1911, or just a little gun based on the 1911?
4. Is a 9mm 1911 a 1911 or just a 9mm that looks like a 1911?

1. A "traditional" 1911/1911A1 is a full sized steel framed, single action only, hammer fired, single stack semi-automatic handgun chambered in .45ACP. Since it's introduction many companies have produced their own versions and variants of the 1911 that include everything from double stack frames to double action variants and in any caliber you can think of, really there is no limit to how people will modify the basic design.

2. Possibly, but I can't think of many off the top of my head. There is the Ballester-Molina which is based on the 1911.

3-4. That depends on who you ask. 1911 purists will most likely say that they are not true 1911s.

 

[tarosean]

3-4. That depends on who you ask. 1911 purists will most likely say that they are not true 1911s.

Commanders were originally designed as a 9mm

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

You may want to start your research by learning the differences between a 1911 and a 1911-a1. The only recent 1911s offered that I know of were some repos made by Colt.

Real 1911's haven't been made since (I think) 1922.

Splitting hairs I know, but you've asked a LOT of questions that a little research will point you toward being able to ask the right questions.

Y'know, I can't really think of anyone I know of, who refers to theirs as "1911-A1s"

Sam

 

[tuj]

1. Explain what a 1911 is to a guy who is familiar with plenty of other guns, their basic operation, and basic disassembly, but has never seen or fired a 1911

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol

In particular the 1911 was one of the first autoloading pistols to display remarkable reliability under many conditions. You can read how to field strip a 1911 on the 1911forum.com or do a search (https://www.google.com/search?q=field+stripping+1911). In particular, the 1911 uses a barrel bushing to mate the barrel and the slide.

2. Are there any guns on the market that you think could be rasily mistaken for a 1911 by someone who knows them by looks alone?

Not really. The 1911 pattern is quite distinct. I don't know of any 1911's aside from .22lr look-alikes that don't function nearly identically to the basic JMB 1911 design.

3. Is a subcompact 1911 a 1911, or just a little gun based on the 1911?

Usually its a 1911. the design scales down.

4. Is a 9mm 1911 a 1911 or just a 9mm that looks like a 1911?

Pretty much its a 1911. The 9mm 1911 almost always uses a ramped barrel while the original design does not have a ramp.

 

[Backpacker33]

I wonder if these responses are over-thinking the OP's question.
Leave aside the facts of 1911 vs 1911A1. That may not be what was asked. I'll address them as the same for this argument.
I'm reasonably sure we'd all agree that anything built according to the Colt patents is a "1911." Hence, the other manufacturers between WWI and WWII made "1911's."
I suppose that anything that can change parts one-for-one with any of those is also a "1911."
So, if a 1911-pattern gun has a full-length guide rod, is it still a 1911? How about an extended slide release, which won't fit a gun with stock grips?
If it has a scandium/aluminum frame is it a 1911? With a rowel hammer and ambi safety release?
If the slide won't interchange with one of the above, is it still a 1911?
I think the question of whether a 1911-pattern gun in 9mm is a "1911" is relevant.
Is a LAR Grizzly a 1911? Looks a lot like one but I don't think many parts interchange.
Then, there are some foreign guns that look a lot like a 1911, but aren't, and parts won't interchange.
This might help put some light, or obfuscation, on the issue:
If you have a "Thompson Submachinegun" made from scratch in 1966 by a gun maker in Pennsylvania, is it a "Thompson?" You and I might think so to see it, but the Thompson Owner's Club would call it a "Thompson pattern" gun, even if ALL the parts are interchangeable with one made in the 1940s and delivered to the Army.
I note that no one with any knowledge of the models refers to the Colt 1905 as a 1911.
It's probably WAAAY too late to try getting people to say "1911 pattern," but I rather think it might be more accurate than the shorthand we all use.

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

I had a buddy that had a double stack compact Llama. I didn't even know they made them. He got it at a song and while I know it isn't a "high quality" 1911ish pistol, it still ran like a dream. He sold it for $200 (doubled his investment).

 

[larryh1108]

I believe that the name "1911" has become a catch-all term for all guns built on the same design as the original model. The purists can hold their ground and insist all others are mere copies but I'd be willing to bet that most of them own a more modern version and call it a 1911 none-the-less.

Today we have so many modifications that a 1911 is a generic term. We have flared ejection ports, many different sights, grip stippling, forward slide serrations, spur hammers, round hammers, oval hammers, extended grip tangs, beaver tails, bull barrels, bob-tails, external extractors, magwells, etc. Is it a 1911? Sure, in the generic sense. In the specific sense, it is a 1911-like gun. However, call it a 1911 and everybody knows what you are talking about. That's really what it is all about.

 

[Skylerbone]

I don't think the OP intended the questions to be any more than an exercise for a clearer definition. For my part, one prominent feature of the 1911 is its large, flat-sided slide to which it owes the nickname, Old Slabsides. Another common feature would be the non-hinged trigger.

In addition to the aforementioned Llama and Ballester Molina, the Coonan is another pistol easily mistaken for a 1911 by novices.

 

[1911Tuner]

Here are the differences that are visible. Others that aren't include the change in front sight tenons from round to rectangular, and a change in the disconnect keyway in the slide. The 1911 sported a flat, smooth mainspring housing. The sights also changed from a U notch rear to a square notch, and the front sight was massaged a little.

The radius on the bottom of the firing pin stop was changed from 5/64ths to 7/32nds in January 1918, so that one could be OEM on either. Earlier models had the smaller radius, but most were switched out when the larger radius became law.

Not clearly visible is the change in the slidestop.

With the exception of the limited run Colt WW1, the modern offerings are 1911A1 copies and variants, and in a purely technical, hair-splitting sense...the only real 1911s and 1911A1s are military issue.

 

[gym]

Just go to "BUDS" and look at their section on 1911's, there are a hundred different guns in there ,all referred to as 1911's. It has become a term describing the type and style of the category of guns that loosely follow the original design. It might be single stack or double stack , 3" or 5" or any length in between. As long as it looks and acts like the original gun, it is classified as a 1911 by the manufacturers.
Go to any distributer or manufacturer and search for 1911, you will get all kinds of pistols categorized as 1911's

 

[flatlander937]

In a nutshell stick with something that has a 4.25" to 5" barrel(commander or government size) in .45acp for best chances at getting something reliable.

Big differences can be bull barrel vs normal barrel bushing setup. Bull barrels have no bushing and generally require a tool for disassembly. Read the pros and coins of each to decide what you like/want.

Make sure you know whatever you are looking at and if all its internal parts are proprietary or not(meaning little/no aftermarket parts will fit). Other goofy things could be the slide profile differences on Sig 1911s(Unless you get their classic series). The slide contour is diffrent so most holsters will not work unless it is Sig specific.


Go buy "1911 - The First 100 Years" by Patrick Sweeney... great book on 1911 history that touches on how Bullseye competition changed them and newer guns/other mfrs/ etc. Great read.