1911 .38 Super Fans?

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CZF

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From my brief time with a .38 Super in a STAR pistol. I'd say that I really liked
it!

Does a 1911 in .38 Super have less recoil than a .45 ACP Gov model?

How reliable is the Super .38 cartridge in the 1911 format?

Anyone carry one for defense..what load?
 
Fired one 38 Super, a Llama 1911 clone. Very easy round to shoot, but the gun was very inaccurate. I would love a Witness 38 Super for a fun gun, and I believe the round is woefully underappreciated....
 
Dear CZF,

I like the .38 Super a lot, too. I haven't carried one, but I use a one-of-a-kind 1911 match gun built on a Para-Ordnance frame with Ed Brown barrel for formal bullseye competition and its accuracy is phenomenal indeed. I can't say whether the .38 Super is more reliable in an Gov't model than the .45 ACP, but mine has been flawless. The cartridge overall length of both is similar. That's a big factor in reliability. Once, I owned custom pistols on double-stack Para-Ordnance frames in .45 or .40 but their reliability was not too great, so I had gotten rid of them (it was indeed more of a gun problem). However, my .38 Super P-O gun works and works.

Normally, I don't shot "hot" .38 Super rounds. The power level of my .38 Super handloads is similar to a "healthy" 9 mm Luger round. For me, the recoil of these loads is definitely easier to control than a standard-pressure .45 ACP load. In particular the muzzle flip of the .38 Super is less than that of the .45 ACP.

I agree with armoredman that the .38 Super is a rather underrated handgun cartridge nowadays. A Government Model (or clone) or Commander or SIG-Sauer's P220 in .38 Super would be great for self-defense.

BTW, the semi-rimmed case design of the .38 Super has never given me any trouble...
 
Sometimes a .38 super Commander (Lightweight or Combat) gets a turn as my CCW gun of choice. The CorBon ammo is pretty zippy, in either 115 or 125 grain.
Compared to the same model in .45 acp, the .38 super gives one a harder straight back push in the hand, where the muzzle of the .45 gets more lift upwards. Hope that makes sense for you.
 
Great round, great gun. I have a pair of Commanders and they are slick.
The 38 super round is one of the best cartridges in the 1911 platform, feeds better than the 45's in my opinion. I have actually never seen a jamming 38 super, I sure there is one out there somewhere, but of the multiples I have have owned and shot, I have yet to see one.

I have read multiple sources on gunsmiths that say it is "the" #2 round in the 1911, the 45 is always going to be #1.

I will also note its pedigree, the 38 Super is the modern version of the 38 Colt Automatic. John Browning designed it first, the first production year was 1900. I copied from THE SIGHT the following:

Based on the experience with the Moros and extensive testing on animals and human cadavers, an Army Ordnance Board headed by Col. John T. Thompson (inventor of the Thompson sub-machine-gun) and Col. Louis A. La Garde, determined that the Army needed a .45 caliber cartridge to provide adequate stopping power. In the mean time, Browning who was working for Colt, had already designed an autoloader pistol, around a cartridge similar in dimension to the .38 Super. When the Army requested designs for a new handgun, Browning re-engineered this .38 autoloader to accommodate a .45" diameter cartridge of his own design with a 230 gr. FMJ bullet, and submitted the pistol to the Army for evaluation.

The 38 Super was the Hi-Vel version of the 38 Colt Automatic introduced in 1928. If there were any 38 Colt Automatic 1911's before that date there are other Colt collectors that can answer with more authority.
 
Many 1911 frames in 45 ACP have the feed ramp cut deeper into the magwell and at a steeper angle than the 9mm/38Super/10mm frames. You can usually see this by visual inspection. My 10mm Delta Elite feed ramp stops a full 1/10th of an inch short of being even with the bottom cut for the slide stop magazine follower tab. My 45 ACP frames all have the feedramp ending at the same level as that bottom cut.

I won't say it can't be done, but feeding might be problematic. You will certainly need a whole top end in 38 Super, a new ejector, slide stop, magazine, and recoil spring. That's around $400 to $450 or so in parts, then you have to make it run. Now how much would a new or lightly used 38 Super cost? Sometimes the price gap does not justify all the work in making conversions.
 
Super .38

Love my three: a pre-series 70; a series 70; and a series 80. All are excellent shooters (the pre has a Barsto barrel). I've had no problems which I can't say about my .45's. Also, my wife enjoys shooting the Super whereas she is intimidated by .45's. :)
 
You know, I found a box of 38 Super in amongst my things so maybe I'll have to get another Colt Super 38. :cool: Possibly one of the bright stainless ones with fire blued trim. :D
 
If one were to buy a 38 Super, is it better to buy with a ramped or unramped bbl...do you think? Or, is there a choice...I am out of touch with these now.

It would be nice with an extra 9mm bbl also.
 
Hopefully Tuner will chime in here and comment, but in my experience a ramped barrel isn't neccessary. Where you need a ramped barrel is when you start playing with super comp loads. It is still the same cartridge just loaded to a lot higher pressure, hence it needs the support around the case all around and the cuts (non supported) in a non ramped barrel are a safety issue. Remember the 1911 was designed for low pressure cartridges. In the supercomps the fix was a ramped barrel, in the 10mm the brass is much thicker in the web, and a lot stronger ( the parent was a rifle case).

On older guns the 38 super was headspaced on the rim, which is very small, and this effected accuracy. Newer pistols have changed to headspacing on the case mouth, not sure when this happened but the changed happened on the series 80 pistols. This is a valid reason to wanting to change barrels in older pistols, if done properly accuracy will almost certainly improve.

I am not a gunsmith nor do I play one on TV, but conversion of a 45 1911 into 38 super isn't practicle. At a minimum the slide must be changed, if you plan on a ramped barrel you might be able to use the frame, on a non ramped barrel the feed ramp on the 45 frame is larger to fit the 45 case and it would be welding bulding up the feed ramp project at a min, and end up costing more in the long run, with high probablity of feed problems in the final. I suppose welding on the slide could be done to convert a 45 slide also, but I think if you take this into a smith he is going to ask you why don't you just start with the right parts.

Slide details and assoiciated parts were pretty well covered in prevoius posts, slide, extractor, springs are all different.

On the 9mm conversion this is a path I haven't walked. I don't think the 9mm's feed as well as the 38 Super's, something about the length of the cartridge, maybe Tuner will see this and work on the tecnical explaination. It doesn't mean that 9mm can't be done, there are a lot that have been done in the past and Colt even made them. I also seem to remember something about magazines, when the 38 super mags are used isn't a spacer put inside the mag so the 9mm ammo won't slide forward, and cause feed issues? My point is there are a couple of small details involved in this conversion, and I would get the facts before I funded it. I know I have seen multiple 9mm original 1911's and none have the reliablity of the 38 Super. I also admit it would be a good range conversion, the cost of ammo drops to around half, but I don't think I would trust it as a carry gun. Once you have your hands on a 38 super, look into the 9x23 barrel this is basically a auto version of a 357 Mag, this round in 125 gr bullets and a mag capacity of 8 makes this an ideal carry gun round, very serious business.
 
My real world experience is somewhat limiter as I've only owned one gun in 38 Super - a Colt Combat Commander, but loved the gun and would gladly buy another... Most my experience with the round other than my own gun, is in the form of custom built raceguns in 38 Super (formerly Super 38) and 9x23 so reliability has been all but perfect. And actually if I were to have a custom 1911 built for carry, it would be in 9x23 which is quite similar but capable of higher safe pressures due to better case design.

I think both are very underappreciated rounds and I think are a better alterative than the 357SIG in most platforms.
 
I only have one 1911 in .38 Super, a Colt Series 80 "Enhanced". It's run like a top since I owned it, and popping rocks out at 100yds is funner when not dealing with the mortar-like trajectory of .45 ACP at that range. I've only performed a couple of modifications to the gun: Ed Brown thumb safety, STI trigger, Ed Brown flat checkered MSH, and a 'no-gunsmithing' Novak rear sight. The only mags I've used with the gun are factory Colt 9-rounders (round follower with no "dimple", although I have a flat-follower w/"dimple" mag still in the shrink wrap.) The gun has performed flawlessly w/Fiocchi ball, GA 147gr Gold Dots, and Cor-Bon 125gr JHP's.

I sometimes use it as a "dress carry" gun, since the bluing is so purty, and keep it stoked with Georgia Arms 147gr Gold Dots for the purpose.
 
I posted some pictures a while back about coverting a Star Super Modelo B from 9 mm to 38 Super by simply reaming out the chamber and replacing the recoil spring.These guns were manaufactured to take either round, 9mm or 38 Largo. They are pretty nice guns for about $140.00. They were built to run on Machine Gun Ammo so they are tough. All of the Supers I built were Race Guns for IPSC shooters and had ramped barrels. The one I built for my CPA has bout 90,000 rounds through it and still does 3/4th of an inch at 25 yards. It still has the original 2lb trigger and is still very tight thanks to the nickle plating that we did back then.
Converting a 45 to 38 Super would not be the way to go. The whole top end needs to be replaced, the frame needs an extended ejector tuned to the gun,and the feed ramp may or may not be compatible. A new slide would have to be fitted to the rails without changing the rails, but rather chewing on the inside of the slide. The job would cost more than a new 38 Super Colt or SA. I really like the 38 Super for a "Gamer Gun" but wouuld not be interested in one for carry. It got a bad rap years ago, not because of the headspacing on the cartridge rim, but because the front of the chamber was made like a funnel and accuracy suffered because of that. Georg Nonte' solved that with a new 45 ACP style chamber reamer that headspaces on the end of the brass case like a 45. The stock 38 super offers a little more than hot 9mm ammo so I prefer the bigger slower moving 45ACP. The are fun to shoot and a great Toy.
 
I've had many .38 supers (SVI Infinities, STI V.I.P.s, STI race gun, SIG P220, several Colts).....it's a great round and fun to shoot at the range. I currently only have 2 and they are duplicate Colt Special Combat Govenment Competitions......have only shot one but it is 100% (as all my Colts have been) with all kinds of cheap range ammo.

My next purchase will be a SIG X-Five (if and when they get to the U.S.) but after than I'd love to get another .38 super in commander size.

38_super_SCGC2.jpg
 
9x23 (marketed by winchester, designed by John Rico) is hotter and has a thicker brass and is rimless. .38 super is semi-rimmed. But, just by metric designation, .38 super is 9x23.
 
I've got a blue Colt Series 80 .38 super, with the 9X23 barrel setup also. I just sold a Colt Bright stainless .38 super. The slabsides of the 1911 really show any tiny scratches which are easy to obtain on the bright finish. One of the guns I wish I hadn't traded away was a early '80 .38 Combat Commander.
 
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