1911 Clinic - Frames and Slides

[Chris Rhines]

I hope that Bigjim won't mind me hijacking his thread title, but -

I'm feeling the urge to build up a 1911A1 from scratch. First step in this is to pick a slide and frame. What brands do you all prefer? Why, or why not? Forged, investment cast, milled from barstock? Stainless, carbon steel, something more exotic?

Thanks all,
Chris

 

[stans]

It's hard to go wrong with Caspian. Their cast receivers are great and they have fewer problems with their cast receivers than they do with bar stock receivers. Caspian only makes bar stock slides.

Essex parts, at least the newer ones, seem to be good also. As far as I know, Essex only makes cast receivers and slides.

 

[Delmar]

Great idea Chris-heck, between you, me, Big G and a few others, poor Tuner, Fuff, and Keenan are never going to get any sleep

I'll toss my two cents in as I had a bit of machine tool background way back when.
First of all, it matters more in design and keeping with the design than any exotic metals.
A good forged carbon steel part, properly heat treated to withstand its intended use is hard to beat. Depending on the particular alloy, its easier on the machine tool bits and can be polished nicely prior to a good blueing. Forgings are a bit thinner in profile for their strength compared to castings.

Stainless is a bit more tricky to machine but there is enough experience with stainless alloys that proper methods and tools are available. Stainless alloys have the advantage of being more corrosion resistant in a given enviornment, but certainly are not rust proof.

Casting has come a long ways, yet some very successful castings are done similar to what the egyptians came up with, called the lost wax method. Ruger is big on this style of casting, and have it down to the point where the part pretty much needs only the working surfaces machined. The biggest problem with castings is if it is not done correctly, you get porosity (bad) and if the mould shifts, you can end up with one frame rail on a different plane than the other. Castings are generally a touch lighter although they tend to run thicker in profile than a forging.

Barstock can be very good as well, dependent on the alloy. Remington has been using barstock receivers for about 50 years, dating back to the 721 series. Lots of machine time would be in order for a frame, and I suppose billets would be cheaper in the long run material wise and the setups it would take to turn out a final product.

To pick a good one, you would want to examine the frame and slide closely to make sure all the holes and cuts were in the right places. I can't imagine anything worse than buying a frame or slide which is so out of spec that it will not accept good quality factory parts.

 

[Old Fuff]

Delamr and stans have both made constructive comments, but the Old Fuff, having been there and done that, is not going to encourage people with little or no previous experience to start building pistols, "from scratch."

I don’t know of a single company or noted professional gunsmith that has ever done this, and I know many of them. There are a lot of things that need to be taken into consideration, and sometimes a remote but important issue can crop up unexpectedly, and when or if it does experience and prior knowledge become very important.

The first thing anyone should do is not pick out the parts – frame, slide, barrel, lockwork, etc. No, the first thing one should do is attend a community college or trade school and learn some basic machinist skills. The second is to purchase some manuals, such as those offered by Jerry Kuhnhausen at www.gunbooks.com and some videos from places like the American Gunsmithing Institute at www.americangunsmith.com

These will not make one into anything close to “1911 Tuner,†but they will provide a hint about what lays ahead, and explain about some of the specialized tools, jigs, fixtures and gages that one should have. Most of these can be obtained from Brownells, a gunsmith supply company at www.brownells.com

After this you can start seriously thinking about specifics regarding what particular parts you want to use to assemble whatever you’ve decided is your dream gun.

I can assure everyone that reads this post that the people at Colt’s, Springfield Armory, Kimber, and yes, even Smith & Wesson didn’t wake up one morning and decide they wanted to build a .45 and so simply went out and bought a bag full of parts. John Browning didn’t design it to be built or assembled that way.

 

[romulus]

I'd like to raise my hand for my first question.

About ten years ago, when I first started getting interested in 1911s, I had the chance to spend quite some time discussing these with a licensed manufacturer, a graduate of the Colorado School of Trades, and a first rate pistolsmith. His work was as beautiful as any as I've seen published on this board by big name smiths. He told me then that he had learned at CST that frames were not to be touched, and slides were the ones that had to be manipulated along their surfaces for proper fit. I remember him calling Brownells asking for NM slides from SA. Now, can anyone corroborate this notion, that slides at one time were what you "whittle down" rather than frames? If yes, when did things change where the frames are the component to be altered? If no, wouldn't it make more sense to fit the slide to the frame, as these are frankly more expendable parts should anything go wrong?

Thank you again,

Rom

 

[Old Fuff]

Rom:

A lot of the things under consideration in these discussions go back to a time around the late 1950’s and early 1960's when the two major U.S. Arsenals at Springfield MA and Rock Island, IL were assigned the task of designing a match grade version of the 1911-A1 .45 service pistol for use by certain military shooting teams and civilian competitors that attended the National Trophy Match (pistol) held at Camp Perry, OH each summer.

The arsenals were required to base their guns on the standard service pistol, and for this purpose they drew a defined number of guns from regular inventory. Thereafter they could do whatever they wanted, within certain limitations.

Civilian pistolsmiths usually built target guns one at a time. The arsenals were expected to turn out equal ones by the hundreds on a production line basis so to speak.

To do this they had certain parts (slides, barrel/bushing sets, links, sears and triggers – as well as sights, made to their specifications. This is where terms like “match grade barrels,†“match slides,†etc. started.

In the case of the slides the rails were oversized, and expected to be a tight fit on any frame. A special fixture was used to lap the frame and slide together, to obtain a tight but sliding fit. I suspect that more metal was removed from the frame simply because the steel in the slide was harder then that in the frame, but it’s a moot point.

Anyway deliberate modifications weren’t made to the frame. It was the practice to use parts with oversized dimensions at certain fitting points to remove excessive looseness, which while acceptable in a service pistol would compromise a target gun.

Today a lot of the technology and terminology that went into these target guns is being used in so-called “combat†guns – either the kind used for games or those intended to be practical weapons. But in the latter category the parts and technology employed in highly accurate target guns may not be what’s good in a weapon where reliability is more important then absolute accuracy.

 

[JeffC]

I've only put together one gun and I used a Colt slide and Caspian cast stainless frame. I was afraid I'd end up with a loose parts gun but their frames are 'max tolerance' everything has to be fitted.

 

[romulus]

...technology employed in highly accurate target guns may not be what’s good in a weapon where reliability is more important then absolute accuracy.

That's my mantra, Old Fuff...All my guns ultimately have to serve a higher purpose, meaning to save life and limb. Reliability is the name of te game along with the "center of mass" thing. I was just curious about what I heard many moons ago, and you shed quite a bit of light on the subject.

Many Thanks,
Rom

 

[Chris Rhines]

Old Fuff -

I do appreciate the advice, but I've got the machining background covered - I've taken several courses in machine shop practice and, a few years back, worked as a mill operator in a production shop. I'm no toolmaker by any means, but I'm a pretty fair home machinist.

I've also got a sizeable library of tapes and books on the 1911A1, including the AGI series. I also have a fair amount of tooling set up.

So, on to frames and slides - which do you like?

- Chris

 

[Old Fuff]

Chris:

I would say you’re a happy exception to the rule, but do review the question, “ what tools, jigs, fixtures and gages do I need to build a complete gun?â€

Frankly, I usually cheat by picking up a used, quality gun and then rebuild it. Why? Because after making a list of all the parts needed to make a complete gun and then pricing each from a list of quality sources I find that the piecemeal approach will cost me more then refurbishing or rebuilding a carefully picked used gun.

That said, I have had good luck using Caspian frames and slides, and if you buy a slide and frame together they will lap it in for you. So far I haven’t found a material difference between their cast vs. forged frames, but I understand they recommend the cast ones. I have also mated Caspian frames with Colt and U.S.G.I Match slides, but the latter are getting hard to find. I don’t know that the Colt slides are better, but I prefer the cosmetic look, especially the slide serrations. One of these days when (if) I get the time I want to build a Commander size pistol on one of Caspian’s Titanium frames, although I don’t really need it. But what’s “need†got to do with anything??? Another thing that nice about Caspian is that you can order the slide with just about any sight cuts you might want – which is very handy if you don’t have a mill – or the particular cutters to make “the†cuts you want. If you want a “duckbutt†grip safety you can have the frame altered to fit a number of popular brands, including their own. They also do a nice job of funneling the magazine well without making it look like the front end of a blunderbuss.

Some people don’t know it, but there is a difference between frames intended for certain cartridges in the feed-ramp area. Caspian will sell you a frame and slide correctly dimensioned for whatever cartridge you are planning to use. Slides of course need to have the right breechface and extractor hole location.

I generally trust anything I find in Brownells’ catalog. There is a range of quality, but I don’t believe they carry outright junk. They have an excellent and well qualified staff that know how to answer questions over the telephone, and will make informed recommendations if they understand what you’re trying too do.

 

[1911Tuner]

Old Fuff

Knows his stuff.

The problem with building one from the ground up with new parts is that
sometimes things just won't do right, no matter how many times you hit'em
with a hammer. It's best that you know what bug causes which rash for
those times, or you could start beatin' on the wrong thing.

Best advice? Buddy up with a local pistolsmith and see if he'll allow a
sit-in and watch while he does his thing. Most are happy to teach a little
along the way. Some can get downright snooty if they think that you're
gonna wind up bein' competition, so make an effort to convince your
prospective pistol professor that you only want to learn to build ONE
for YOURSELF...and to be able to keep it in good repair.

When I was doin' the job, I had guys sit in all the time. Just the crew
hangin' around the gun shop, and a few of them built some nice pistols
for themselves, even though I was never really a custom builder...more
of a troubleshooter/fixer, but they caught the basics and used their imagination. Those were some of the best times of my life, and I miss
it. Forged some long-term friendships and had a ball. Didn't make a lotta
money, though...About the time I'd get a little nest egg started, the shop
would get an old GI trade-in... I think it was a conspiracy.

Luck to ya! Hope everybody builds up a good'un.

Tuner

 

[m1911joe]

Chris I have built two guns myself. ( With the help of a good gunsmith.)
The first one I did on a Chip McCormick Easy Fit Frame and Slide. Very
little lapping to get it to fit. The second I built on a Les Baer stainless
frame and slide. These came prefit. There are two options for you.

If you do build a gun the hardest question I had to figure out was the
barrel/bushing/slide fit. Everthing that I was able to figure out made it
the hardest part to get done. Then I saw the Briley Spherical bushing.
Talk about god send. And if it starts to get loose just get a new bronze
bushing for it and your good as new.

 

[romulus]

I would like to know, hypothetically, if I were to get a slide and frame kit from, say, Caspian, and I have to fit them) assume they won't mate, theyre too tight...Why would I attack the Caspian frame with stones and files or mill? Why can't I start taking metal (the few thousandths required) from the mating surfaces on the Caspian slide? Sure it may be harder work, but I see that as an advantage, meaning I runn less a risk of taking off too much metal with my file strokes...seems to me I would end up with the same essential "fit" with little or no danger of harming the more valuable part, the frame.

Just thinking out loud here...

Old Fuff, I can't thank you enough for your reply, I really enjoyed that history. Sheds light on some things I've (merely) observed over the years...

 

[1911Tuner]

Fitting it

romulus...For an extra 50 bucks, Caspian will pre-fit the slide and frame
for you. If you opt for the 95% pre-fitted set...How do I put this gently...
You use a fixture and clamp the frame in a vise, put some lapping compound in the rails, start the slide on it by tapping carefully on the
front of the slide with a lead hammer. When you get it started, you
beat it all the way on with the hammer...than all the way back off.
Repeat until you can slide it on and off with hand pressure. Rinse and put
a non-imbedding lap in the rails and start working. About 200-300
round trips should do it. Rinse. Then mix up a slurry of J&B Bore Cleaner and oil and start again until the slide will fall on and off under its own weight.

I normally go about it a little more gently with files and stones to achieve
about a 98% "Gravity Fit"...and finish it up with 5 micron lap followed by the slurry. Sometimes the lead hammer still gets involved, but the
vise and fixture isn't usually needed after stoning.

When you get into welding and recutting frame rails, it's a whole 'nother set of rules. This is where the bulk of my experience is. I've built less than
a dozen pistols from new parts.

My advice is to throw an extra fifty at Caspian to pre-fit the set. It's worth it. They do right good work.

Cheers!
Tuner

 

[Old Fuff]

If anyone is going to do their own slide lapping as explained by Tuner be sure the frame is supported in the vise. You need a block to fit inside the magazine well, and two others, one on each side. These must have holes drilled in them so that the grip screw bushings are not crushed. If you don't do this you may have a perfect slide/frame fit but the frame won't accept a magazine. We won't even think about the condition of the grip screw bushings.

Commercial blocks can be purchased from Brownells (www.brownells.com) or, if you have the skill and equipment you can make your own.

In any case never clamp the handle-area of a frame in a vise for any reason unless the blocks are in place.

 

[1911Tuner]

Makin' it

Fuff said:

you can make your own.

I made the fixture to support the grip frame, and I use an old magazine that I filled with molten lead...one of the benefits of bein' a bullet caster...I
cut two pieces of flat ground stock...can't remember what thickness just now..to slip into the magwell on either side of the lead-zine. The front of the frame is supported by a milled fixture that is held in place through the
slidestop hole. Crude, but it works. Haven't used it in a long time, but I
feel one comin' on in the not too distant future.

Best to just pay Caspian the fifty bucks and concentrate on the finer points

Tuner

 

[Vic]

1911 frame

I wanted a "mil-spec" shooter but I didn't want the lower quality that the "out of the box" mil-spec's offer. I started with an Essex frame that required a minor amount of pink stone dremmel work for the thumb safety hole (that's about it besides polishing contact surfaces). I installed an Auto Ordnance frame kit from Gunparts Inc, it was complete. All the parts fit nicely but I did have to trim the main hammer spring in the MSH. I purchased a brazillian slide from Sarco and a rear sight (be ready for some work here). I stripped it and installed the rear sight to the zero windage and parked it (it took the parking well). The internal machining is a little crude in the NON CONTACT areas, so it's not as nice as a colt etc. I installed a WWII barrel that I had laying around that was in real good shape. The barrel bushing is a wilson combat that I hand lapped to the barrel and I hand lapped the slide for a perfect fit.The barrel bushing and all small parts for the top end came from brownells (good quality stuff). What I ended up with is a GI looking 1911 that is tight (never seen that before), and more accurate than an original WWII colt 1911A1 #902706 I once had. I'm still in the process of breaking it in (60rds thus far and the fliers are becomming fewer each session). When all is said and done, I think a 2" group at 25yds will be the norm. Personally, I think the Essex frame was a good base that required minimal work. It was not a bad choice (guess) by any means. If anyone is considering building a shooter...Essex is not bad...really. If you wanted to build a high end tack driver, then buy a really good one (colt, etc). The only thing that's really wrong with this gun is that it likes to not eject when you are at the second to the last round. The spent casing is not thrown and it jams the spent casing into the top rear of the barrel holding the slide open. It's annoying but I'll figure it out. People say mag problem, type bullet, quality of ammo, etc. I can get it to burn 7rds without a jam if I use USGI ball ammo, but nothing else (on one out of three different mags). Any help with this would be appreciated. UPDATE...I got the feed problem solved (can use any mag now...FMJ or LRN). The spring in the MSH was too heavy. I removed 1.5 coils and wah-la. Feeds from any mag using LRN or FMJ ball. I knew I'd figure it out. Since it is a build, most of the springs are not "drop-in". You have to adjust until it likes it. It took 150rds total to figure this one out. I suspected that the hammer spring was resisting enough to retard the full stroke of the slide very slightly. That is why one mag worked and the rest didn't. I was right at the threshhold of not operating correctly with any magazine had there been one more coil on the hammer spring.