1911 Failure Revisited

[BluesBear]

The Wolff magazines are very nice mags.
But they're just a Metalform body and follower with a Wolff spring.

Wolff makes some very nice springs.
But since I've never worn out a Metalform spring I can't justify the extra cost.



I recently received a WWII era Remington/General Shaver magazine in a trade.
You know the ones with the dadoed and welded seam.
It was filthy!
THe grease/oil inside had turned into varnish.
And the powder soot was crusted everywhere.

So I sprayed it real good with carb cleaner.
Ran a 12ga patch soaked with Ballistol around the insides real good.
Sprayed Break Free on the spring and follower and reassembled the mag.

As you can see in the photos I just took, the follower shows a LOT of use (as does the body) but the lips still hold the cartridge at just the right angle and height.
I ran 49 rounds of 230 Hardball and 17 rounds of W-W Silvertip out of it into a Colt Lighweight Commander without a hitch.


This old girl has still got a lot of life left in her.
But like most good old girls she has too much class for me.
I just need to find someone with an old Remington GI pistol that needs a good vintage mag.

 

[Sport45]

Can someone start a thread (maybe even make it a "sticky") about how to check out a 1911 magazine? I'm getting what I feel is very good advice about checking feed lips for spread, etc. Trouble is that I don't know how to do it. 1911 pattern pistols are very popular and proper magazine configuration is critical to their reliability so I think a thread like this would be well received.

Thanks again for all the good advice.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Bear sez:

>The Wolff magazines are very nice mags.
But they're just a Metalform body and follower with a Wolff spring.<

Yep.
**********************

And:

>>Wolff makes some very nice springs.
But since I've never worn out a Metalform spring I can't justify the extra cost.<<
****************

If your Metalforms are stainless, they probably already have the Wolff springs unless otherwise specified. I've had some occasional trouble with Metalform's
standard springs in pistols shorter than 5-inch...and a lot of the same in the OM/Defender/Micro variants. In all cases, the Wolff 11-pound spring squared'em away.

Note to all who may need the info:

The shorter mags used in the OM/Defender/Micro pistols will accept and work with the standard 7-round followers and full-length springs. Neat!

 

[BluesBear]

Sport45 you picked one of the most reliable 8rd mags to compare.

The Mec-Gar extended 8rd mags use 12 coils (8 large & 5 small) of .048" wire.
While Colt and GI magazines use 13 coils of .047" wire.
I have never had a magazine related malfunction, in an in-spec gun, with any of my Mec-Gar extended 8rd mags.

I also have over a dozen 8rd mags that use 8 or 9 coils of .043" or .044" wire that give me no problems.

It's the composition of the spring wire that is important not just the diameter.

However I have found that many of those 7rd to 8-rd kits out there that give you a the 8/9 coil spring and a Devel (Shooting Star) style follower do not work well in magazines with the old style angled feed lips.
The Devel follower was designed to work with parallel or just slightly angled feed lips.

The angled feed lips on GI magazines measure on average .367" to .425" back to front.
The 8rd extended Mec-Gars measure on average .395" to .415"

For comparison the lips on my 1st Variation Devel mags measure .396" ±.002"
2nd variation Devels measure .386 ±.002"
And the lips on my Mag-Pacs (which used almost the same bodies from the same source as Devel) actually get smaller back to front .405 to .394!
Yet for some reason they all work 100%?

In my research I am finding that it's the pistol that determines just how reliable the magazines will be.
I have tested many pistols that run well with all of the test mags.
The one thing all of these pistols have in common is either they still have their original springs or they have mil-spec springs installed.

With heavier springs more and more magazines quit performing.
With lighter springs some magazines stop performing as well.
With standard springs everything starts working again.


Also too many people change the followers without changing the springs, or vice versa.
The top coil of the spring for a GI 7rd follower is MUCH different from the top coil of the spring for a 8rd Devel style follower. They will not interchange and still work.

And the 8rd magazine do not work well in a 1911 pattern pistol that is oversprung. They much prefer the timing of an in-spec/balanced pistol.

My research is far from over but I am beginning to suspect that a lot of so called magazine problems are actually caused by the gun.

While it's true that the original design is more forgiving in some respects they still stop working at a higher rate when loaded with ammo other than ball in an oversprung gun.


Please note that my testing is limited to full sized magazines.
Even though I have been testing them with Officers ACP sized pistols I have not undertaken the task of comparing and testing the shorter versions.

 

[BluesBear]

Oh yeah, one thing I forgot...

The springs and followers aren't interchangable between the Mec-Gar and Colt magazines.

Yes they are on the flush fitting ones.

The flush fit 8rd Mec-Gar mags use a 9 coil .043" spring and the Devel vII follower. (the Devel vII follower is very close to the Shooting Star)
Essentially the same setup as the 8rd Colt magazines.
(Well, they should be now shouldn't they?)

 

[BHPshooter]

Wow, Bluesbear, it looks like you've got a nifty collection of old .45 ammo. Where do you find that stuff?

Lots of good information in this thread. Thanks, guys. I'm learning a lot.

Wes

 

[Old Fuff]

If you go to gun shows, forget the guns and look for some tables set up by cartridge collectors. They are a friendly bunch, usually will answer questions, and setting up a collection of .45 ball ammunition is not especially expensive.

Same could be said about 9mm Luger. The more common rounds often sell for 25 cents or less.

 

[riverdog]

Except that those magazine in the photo ARE NOT USGI magazines. They are Chinese produced forgeries.

Sorry Riverdog, but I hope you didn't pay too much for them.

The magazines ain't real. . .

More info needed. ammoman.com is selling them as GI mags. Mine weren't marked as from Ludlow, but otherwise the packaging is similar.

 

[BluesBear]

Ludlow made the packaging NOT the magazines. :banghead:

I don't care what Ammoman is selling them as.
Ammoman doesn't buy directly from the US Govt. They buy from salvagers. Ammoman was probably told they were USGI. The truth is Ammoman doesn't care. All they worry about it what they pay for them and how much they can sell them for.
It's Basic Retail Merchandising 101.

As I said before. Those ain't real USGI magazines that ain't even the correct packaging for USGI magazines.

Some of those cheap Chinese knockoffs actually work. At least for a while.
Many of them don't. Perhaps you got lucky. I just hope you get your monies worth, cause whether they work or not, they ain't real USGI.

 

[riverdog]

A little more info It seems the jury is out, but it more likely that they're rejected USGI than Chinese knock-offs. In any case, it's time to call Metalform.

 

[StrikeEagle]

A little more info It seems the jury is out, but it more likely that they're rejected USGI than Chinese knock-offs. In any case, it's time to call Metalform.

Well, this is as confusing as all get-out. And it's where I'd quietly get off the bus. That would drive me up a wall to have a large number of iffy magazines that may or may not work in one pistol but not another. I'd much MUCH rather have a smaller number of high-quality mags that always work in all my .45's.

I cast my own bullets and reload large-ish numbers of .45 range ammo. Sometimes I'll have to troubleshoot a new bullet or a new reloading procedure. I don't wanna have to sweat the possibility of a Bum Mag on top of everything else.

My very sincere advice is to buy the best, most reliable magazines there are... (Wolff Mags, IMO). If your Magazine Budget is smallish, just buy fewer of them. But... 'deals' on .45 mags lead to malfunctions. And malfunctions lead to anger. And anger is of the Dark Side.

StrikeEagle

 

[riverdog]

I bought ten of the mags from ammoman on a whim along with an order of ammo (Lake City 7.62 NATO IIRC). I've got a number of Wilson mags which work fine in everything now that they're all upgraded to 7 rnds.

BTW, the Wolff mags look good.

 

[Seraph]

BTW, the Wolff mags look good.

They should. They're made by Metalform.

 

[19112XS]

I went out and ground it off. Got some grind marks on the bottom of the base, but I can fix that with some cold blue ...

Yup, I do the same thing Fuff........'Cept I'm outta cold blue. I bought a bunch of mags that were only half blued, so I cold blued all of 'em

A friend sold me a batch of Metalform mags and I'm quite impressed. They mags have a "quality" feel. The weight, fit and finish, and materials used are all great! The ammunition snaps into place. The spring pressure is solid. There is very little rocking motion shown by the follower. Mine are stainless tubes, Wolff springs, and flat dimpled followers. They work in 4" and 5" alike. I've had several brands, and these work best. YMMV

 

[DBR]

After much experimenting with 1911 mags, the best combo I have found is the McCormick Powermag body and the Tripp Research 7rd spring and follower kit. The stock Powermag spring is good. The Devel 8rd follower is not.

Sportsman's Guide frequently has the McCormick Powermags on sale for $16.99. The Tripp kits costs about $7. For less than the cost of a Wilson mag you get an excellant spring and follower in a tube that I think is better than the Wilson.

 

[BluesBear]

See how the five witness holes are all up near the top instead of being in the middle where they're supposed to be?
That a sure sign that they were not made in the USA.
Which means they are not "rejected" GI mags. :banghead:

There is no US manufacturer, nor has there ever been, that produced 1911 magazines with five oversized witness holes all bunched together near the top of the tube.

For a while Norinco 1911A1 pistols were shipped with these magazines.
The mags were made in China just like the Norincos.
They have even shown up shipped with the Armscor produced pistols. That is until the Phillipinos discovered what junk they were and started using Act-Mag magazines.

For Pete's sake man, look at those mags. Handle them, inspect them. Look closely.
Do they really look like quality magazines to you? :banghead:

Every time I see a big pile of these at the gunshows I ask myself, "Self, just who in the heck would buy this junk?"

Well, since that question has now been answered I can go on.
"Self, why is there air?"

 

[riverdog]

Bluesbear,
Chill and stop :banghead: it gets old. It seems you've handled these mags more than me. I pulled a couple out and wasn't impressed, but they worked. The rest are still wrapped. I've got lots of mags; I may try DBR's Tripp Research upgrade to my PowerMags, but for now the 7 round Wilsons will do fine.

 

[BluesBear]

Thefumegator, I've just been stashing away odd ammo here and there over the past 35 years.

I really don't know what the best ammo is for defense against attacking alien mutant zombie ninja wolfsheep, but if it turns out to be Norma 230gr JHP or 190gr Super-Vel I got my six it covered.

 

[Old Fuff]

Chill and stop it gets old.

Frankly, I hope Blues Bear continues. I find his information to be enlightening, and it might possibly prevent someone from buying a counterfeit USGI magazine. It isn't an issue of whether the magazines work or not, but rather knowing what you are buying.

 

[riverdog]

Bluesbear's info is good. It's the banging head thing. What's that about? Why is he getting bent outta shape over someone else's purchase when the other guy (in this case me) isn't particularly concerned? I do appreciate the info, but it's nothing to fret about.

 

[wally]

Forgery or not, the ones I have from ammoman.com have all worked fine so far in three different 1911 guns. I too have a lot of mags so I can't say how well they will hold up as so far each has only been used five or six times. But no complaints as of now -- no feed failures, slide always locks back, and they drop free, what more can a magazine do?

For ~$7 each they seem like pretty good mags, OTOH if you paid exhorbident prices thinking you were getting collector's items its gotta hurt.

--wally.

 

[1911Tuner]

Mags

I've bought some cheap gunshow mags that worked pretty well..at least for a time. Some longer than others. I knew they were bogus when I bought'em...but went ahead. I've also bought some fake GI mags that worked well with Wolff srings and maybe a follower tweak...and kept workin' for a long enough time to qualify'em as beater mags intended to be dropped,
stepped on, or kicked around. Some of those are doin' yeoman service in my range kit right now. Would I bet my life on'em? No.

Over the years, I've found that I can get a bad pistol to run with good magazines a lot easier than the other way around. I've got pistols that haven't missed a beat in 20,000 rounds with my good magazines, choke like a pukin' buzzard on junk magazines...or even some of the "quality" high-end
aftermarket gamer mags.

You may draw your own conclusions. I have.

 

[Old Fuff]

Perhaps it should be noted that during that period of time when the Government Model Colt made its reputation for unrivaled reliability (1911- 1960's) the only magazines that were available were either made by Colt themselves, or during wartime by government sub-contractors operating under strict quality control supervision and inspection. All of these magazines held 7 rounds, and had the flat/dimpled follower. They were also used almost exclusively with 230-grain ball ammunition in guns that had small throats and unpolished feed ramps. The pistol retained its reliability in all kinds of difficult environments involving the worst possible climatic conditions. It is only in recent times, with the proliferation of makers, (both guns and magazines) and ammunition with far different configurations, that reliability issues have become prominent.

This is not to say that “old slabsides” can’t be made to perform, but an examination of what it did in the past might provide some clues as to why it sometimes doesn’t now.

When one considers (as much as possible) total reliability to be the most important factor (as it should be in any firearm intended to be used as a weapon and not a big-boy toy) they would be well advised to use pistols, magazines and ammunition that have proven themselves over time. Ultimately what works – works. That which doesn’t or is questionable probably won’t.

 

[StrikeEagle]

*nods to Fuff*

Agree with this... and of course the only 1911's were full sized 5" pistols, as designed by JMB.

Yes, the 1911 is very receptive to tinkering, but... the more deviations from the original specs, the more opportinities for a fubar.

StrikeEagle