1911 Feed Failures

[Sport45]

My 1991A1 has started giving me trouble after years of flawless use. I'm starting to get feed failures (nose up in chamber) about once every third or fourth magazine. I have six magazines and it doesn't seem to matter which one I'm using so i don't think that's the problem. Two of them are brand-new Mec-Gars, two are Wilson's and the other two are Colts. All are clean and the spring are as long as new. The ammunition is the same as I've been using for years. 4.8gr of Titegroup under a 200gr swaged lead SWC in mixed brass. I've tried new S&B hardball with the same results.

Does this sound like an extractor issue? Ideas and opinions welcome!

 

[Canuck-IL]

I assume the ramp is clean and smooth. Doubt it's the extractor as you'd probably see that as a failure to eject...I'd have a look at the breech face...polish it up to eliminate any drag as the case slides up to the extractor.
/Bryan

 

[jonnyc]

The problem you describe really sounds mag related. Any chance your mag catch is faulty?

 

[farscott]

When was the last time the recoil spring was changed? A "tired" recoil spring can lead to failures to feed.

 

[1911Tuner]

Nosy Ammo!

My 1991A1 has started giving me trouble after years of flawless use. I'm starting to get feed failures (nose up in chamber) about once every third or fourth magazine. I have six magazines and it doesn't seem to matter which one I'm using so i don't think that's the problem. Two of them are brand-new Mec-Gars, two are Wilson's and the other two are Colts. All are clean and the spring are as long as new. The ammunition is the same as I've been using for years. 4.8gr of Titegroup under a 200gr swaged lead SWC in mixed brass. I've tried new S&B hardball with the same results.

Does this sound like an extractor issue? Ideas and opinions welcome!

Howdy Sport, and welcome aboard.

Mo' detail, please...

The nose-up FTF...Last round? Ever get one caught between the slide and barrel hood with the cartridge stickin' straight up like a stovepipe failure to eject...except it's on a live round?

OR...Is it a simple failure to go to/return to battery...and bumping it on the back of the slide finishes chambering the round?

For future reference...A failure to feed is a condition in which the round doesn't get into the chamber. If it enters the chamber...even a little...it fed. The stoppage is then known as a failure to go to battery. Saves confusion...and I confuses easy at my age.

Standin' by...

 

[Sport45]

Thanks for the great replies. Lots of food for thought.

The feed ramp is polished, but the barrel hasn't beeen touched (throated, etc.). The recoil spring is new. I've tried 16# and 18.5# springs with the same results. I can almost always clear the jam by dropping the magazine and letting the cartridge drop through the mag well when I pull the slide back a bit. It's like the slide is riding over the rim and catching the round in the middle, if that makes sense. Once in a very great while a tap on the back of the slide will finish chambering the round but that is the exception, not the rule. This seems to mostly happen on the 5th or 6th round out, never the last. I can put the round back in the magazine, drop the slide on it will always feed the rest of the magazine. This is definately a failure to go into battery as I've never seen a stovepipe type jam with a loaded cartridge. All the insight is appreciated.

 

[Sport45]

Sorry about taking the thread off topic, but Scott, do you follow High School band at all? I was at the BOA Grand Nationals in Indy last year and I have to say Kennesaw Mountain had a fantastic show. I thought they should have won. (Of course only if Stephen F. Austin couldn't claim the title!)

Good day,
Sport

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

This one kinda caught my eye...

Tuner, What say you?

Slide stop/mag catch? Barrel link?

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Hi Sport,

In this statement:

> It's like the slide is riding over the rim and catching the round in the middle, if that makes sense. Once in a very great while a tap on the back of the slide will finish chambering the round but that is the exception, not the rule. This seems to...<
****************

You've described two different malfunctions. The first ( Seems to be riding over the rim) is known as a "Rideover Feed" in which the round isn't in feeding position when the slide meets it. Related to the "Bolt-Over Base" but not exactly the same. The rideover is a true failure to feed in which the round is usually firmly jammed against the feed ramp with the slide on top of it. The Bolt-Over results in the cartridge standing straight up in the port, caught between the breechface and the barrel hood. Also a true failure to feed,
and a potentially dangerous one. Both these stoppages are caused by the magazine, and most often by a weak or damaged spring. A heavier recoil spring aggravates the problem because it speeds the slide up on its return to battery...and it's actually outrunning the magazine. The cure is usually a good spring. I recommend Wolff 11-pound mag springs.

In the second, where you describe being able to tap the slide and chamber the round, you're describing a failure to go into battery. Since you've said that the gun used to be dead reliable, we can eliminate rough breechface
and stem bind (3-Point Jam) and turn our attention to the extractor. Because it was once reliable, excessive tension isn't likely the bug.

Remove the extractor and clean the channel thoroughly. Clean the breechface with a solvent-wet brush, and use a toothpick to get into all the nooks and crannies that the brush can't reach. Extractor removal on a Series 80 Colt is a little more involved than on a pre-80, and must be done in proper sequence. Instructions are available on the Gunsmithing forum, contained in the sticky thread titled "The 1911 Clinic." (Series 80 Detail Strip)

That SHOULD solve the return to battery failures. If you have Rideover or Bolt-Over stoppages, you need a new mag spring.

Luck!

 

[Beethoven]

My 1991A1 has started giving me trouble after years of flawless use. I'm starting to get feed failures (nose up in chamber) about once every third or fourth magazine. I have six magazines and it doesn't seem to matter which one I'm using so i don't think that's the problem. Two of them are brand-new Mec-Gars, two are Wilson's and the other two are Colts. All are clean and the spring are as long as new. The ammunition is the same as I've been using for years. 4.8gr of Titegroup under a 200gr swaged lead SWC in mixed brass. I've tried new S&B hardball with the same results.

Does this sound like an extractor issue? Ideas and opinions welcome!

Have you changed any of the springs, particularly the recoil spring? IIRC, the recoil spring in a 1911 should be changed approx. every 3,000 rounds.

If you are going to replace the recoil spring, may as well replace the firing pin spring and mag springs too.

Cheap and easy fix/maintenance.

You should also detail strip the slide and frame, as I'm sure its gotten dirty in there.

 

[dsk]

If it only just started to happen you really need to examine what, if anything has changed recently. Make sure it isn't an issue with your reloads. Perhaps a reloading die went out of adjustment. Clean the pistol well, including the extractor groove and chamber end of the barrel. Run some factory ammo through it as well to see if it still coughs even with those. Hopefuly you can narrow it down.

 

[Sport45]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to table this one for a while until I can get to the range. Next time it happens I'll take pictures (worth a thousand words, I hear). Is it considered okay to lay a firearm down (muzzle downrange, of course) when it's jammed to get a camera or should I be sure to have someone there to take the picture?

 

[BluesBear]

Is it considered okay to lay a firearm down (muzzle downrange, of course) when it's jammed to get a camera or should I be sure to have someone there to take the picture?

It should be Okay. I know it would be at my range.

However, I would have the camera handy and ready to go. Just keep an eye on your gun and make sure some Helpful Henry doesn't try to rush in and "fix it" for you.

 

[wally]

The rideover is a true failure to feed in which the round is usually firmly jammed against the feed ramp with the slide on top of it. The Bolt-Over results in the cartridge standing straight up in the port, caught between the breechface and the barrel hood. Also a true failure to feed,
and a potentially dangerous one. Both these stoppages are caused by the magazine, and most often by a weak or damaged spring.

A heavier recoil spring aggravates the problem because it speeds the slide up on its return to battery...and it's actually outrunning the magazine. The cure is usually a good spring. I recommend Wolff 11-pound mag springs.

A fellow over on the 1911fourm.com gunsmithing & troubleshooting board would dispute this! (http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118279)

My experience with double stack 1911s where this is a very common issue was that stronger or weaker recoil springs made no significant difference. As you say, a stronger mag spring has always been the cure, unfortunatley mag spring life in double stack .45s seems rather short in my experience

It also possible dirt/fouling is causing the magazine follower to bind (also fairly common with the double stack .45 mags) but can't say I've ever had this problem with single stack .45s.

I'm not sure I'd make a big deal of the difference between ride over vs. bolt over base as the fundamental issue seem the same -- mag fails to get the round up into proper positon at the required time, the difference just seems to be a matter of how close it came to being right.


--wally.

 

[1911Tuner]

Dispute

Wally,

He can dispute it all he pleases. I know better. Think about it for a minute.
If the slide outruns the magazine, increasing the slide's speed on the return with a stronger recoil spring is going to increase the chances that the magazine can't keep up. Springs work in both directions.

As far as making an issue over the two similar failures...as noted, the rideover doesn't carry the danger of setting off the primer like the bolt-over...and even if the round does fire in a rideover, the brass shards are contained within the pistol...They aren't in the bolt-over. it's stickin' up right there in the breech...about 18 inches from your face.

 

[wally]

I agree with you, matches my experiences, except approx. +/- 2lbs springs over/under stock made no difference towards solving the problem in my double stacks. Solution was strongest magazine springs I could get. I've little doubt a stong enough recoil spring could cause the problem -- but if the gun was working before, the recoil spring sure didn't get stronger with use

I see your point as to the possible different consequences of a very unlikely event, but once the slide slips above the rim I don't see anything in the gun that can hit the primer. Perhaps you are talking about attempts to clear the jam without dropping the mag first?

--wally.

 

[1911Tuner]

Primer

Wally,

Think about what a nose-up, bolt-over induced stoppage does. The round is caught between the hood and slide, with the bullet nose standin' straight up in the breech. Depending on where the slide bangs into the case...high on the side or low, near the head...the primer can pressure-detonate and set off the powder charge. Try hittin' a live round on the side with a hammer. You don't need to bang it very hard. Wear welder's gloves and safety glasses.
Federal primers are the most prickly of the bunch...CCI are the toughest.
If your pistol tosses in the occasional bolt-over, I strongly suggest CCI primers.



Saw it happen once. The shooter had two bolt-overs. I told him that it was dangerous. He ignored the warning. Third time's the charm, so they say...
If he hadn't been wearing glasses, he would've taken a ride down the Highway of No Return. Both lenses had shards of brass imbedded in'em,
and he had blood tricklin' down his face. I'm so leery of the malfunction, that I use a dummy for the last round in the mag when I test-fire after correction.