1911 Full - Auto

[elChupacabra!]

Ok, here is a hypothetical.

A 1911 goes into the shop for a trigger job from a reputable smith with Cylinder & Slide parts (trigger, sear, sear spring, hammer, disconnector). It comes out with a crisp 4lb trigger.

Six rounds are loaded into the mag. The weapon is put on safe and walked to the line. The weapon is taken off safe and the trigger is pressed one time.

Five rounds discharge. The slide falls into battery on the sixth round but does not continue firing.

The weapon is put on safe and unloaded.

The magazine is now loaded with two rounds. The magazine is inserted, the slide is hand-cycled. The weapon is put on safe and walked to the line.

The weapon is taken off safe, the trigger is pressed, but the hammer does not fall. Pressing the trigger several times, the hammer finally falls to half-cock when the trigger is RELEASED.

Can someone give me an analysis of what could cause this type of hypothetical situation? Broken parts? Worn disconnector? Weak sear spring?

Thanks guys.

 

[rcmodel]

Back off the trigger stop screw a turn to start with.
If it's set too close to the sear break point it could cause the problem with the trigger not releasing at all. It will also cause the sear to hit the safety notch every time and quickly ruin the sear & hammer hooks.

No wait!
You said:

a trigger job from a reputable smith

Take it back to him and dump it on his workbench.

No way this gun should have ever got out of his shop in that condition!!
If you paid for the work or not, it's inexcusable!

rcmodel

 

[elChupacabra!]

rcmodel,

Thanks for the input. Hypothetically, if this had happened to me, it would definitely be going back to the smith post haste.

Of course this is just hypothetical, given the current state of the ATF. Still, if it were to happen, I'm sure it would be about the most startling thing to ever happen to someone at a range - in my opinion, guns should NEVER do anything they aren't expected to... ESPECIALLY go FA.

 

[Spartacus451]

Don't take it back to the same smith. Send it out to a reputable place like C&S, EGW, Gray Guns. Be prepared to wait. Good work means waiting. You should demand a refund.

I don't use local smiths anymore.

 

[elChupacabra!]

As a bit of additional information for this interesting, hypothetical situation, imagine that just 2 weeks before the gun went FA, the gun was verified to be working properly, because the shooter met the smith at the range who was test-firing it and allowed the shooter to test-fire a mag through it him (or her) self. The gun worked just fine for everyone in that imaginary time, and the only additional thing that happened to the gun before it came back to the owner was a new grip safety was fitted and installed. In this hypothetical situation, perhaps something changed regarding the sear spring when the grip safety was removed and replaced? Is this plausible, or is the problem more likely in the disconnector? Both?

 

[rcmodel]

There is only one way to put the sear & disconnecter in and still have a working gun at all.

Yes, the sear spring could have been installed with the center lief under the disconnecter instead of on top of it. Or the left leg under the sear instead of on top of it.



However, if the trigger stop screw was set to close, the hammer intercept notch has been steadly whacking away at the sharp sear edge, and may have just taken a while to round it off till it won't hold the hammer hooks any longer.

But even then, the intercept notch should catch the hammer, and it should not go full auto!

rcmodel

 

[elChupacabra!]

Wow, thanks for the pictures RC. I think I'm starting to understand what might have happened, though the combo of FA and now hammer not falling really baffles me.

In either event, if the smith can't fix this hypothetical problem quickly and easily, the smith might better get ready to buy somebody a new figurative C&S hammer / sear kit and give somebody their money back for the job he botched in the first place!

 

[Eric F]

+1 to rcmodel. I would recomend a very close inspection of all the parts. Also I have heard several smiths tell people to completely remove the trigger stop to prevent problems.

 

[machinisttx]

Given the latest conviction on a gun owner by charges brought by the ATF, said gun owner and the gunsmith would both be facing a trial and jail time.

Personally, I'm glad I have property to shoot on and the ability to do my own gunsmithing work. I can't imagine being forced to use public ranges or the "services" of some gunsmiths.

 

[rcmodel]

Also I have heard several smiths tell people to completely remove the trigger stop to prevent problems

That's malarkey!

If the trigger stop is adjusted correctly, and blue Loctite in place on the screw, there can be no problem with it.

The problem comes when someone who hasn't a clue what they are doing adjusts it too close to zero travel after the sear breaks. That will allow the intercept notch to "tick" on the sear edge every time it goes past it.
That will quickly ruin the sharp polished sear edge.

Some folks think that little Allen-head screw in the trigger adjusts the trigger pull weight, and just can't resist Screwing with it. (Pardon the pun!)

Of course, the manufactures & vendors don't help matters any by calling every one of them "Adjustable Triggers"!

To adjust the trigger stop properly, screw it in while trying the trigger until it won't release the hammer.

Then back it off about a turn, while raising & lowering the hammer with the trigger held back.
You will be able to feel the hammer "tick" the sear each time you lower it.

Keep backing off the trigger stop screw until the "tick" is gone, and then give it another 1/2 turn to insure complete clearance.

After the Loctite kicks over, it will never change again or give any problems, unless you Screw with it again.

rcmodel

 

[Jim K]

There was a "gunsmith" in the area who specialized in 1911 trigger jobs. A couple of customers had their guns go full auto. It turned out that he was so proud of his "knife edge" sears, and so worried about damage to them from the half cock notch that he ground off the notch. He was visited by a lawyer and a couple of cops and "persuaded" to take up another line of work as well as pay for repairs of the guns he had worked on. (It seems he also "forgot" to get an FFL or a business license, pay taxes, or worry about zoning laws.) Last I heard he was fixing lawnmowers.

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

Now, that's a good one!

We (5th. Inf. AMU) used to cut the outer ends of the intercept notch off on National Match guns to protect the sear. I still do in fact on very light trigger jobs.
But not the whole darn thing!

Cutting the outer ends leaves a notch in the middle to catch the hammer, but the outer edges that hit the sear are gone.

rcmodel

 

[Jolly Rogers]

There was a "gunsmith" in the area who specialized in 1911 trigger jobs. A couple of customers had their guns go full auto. It turned out that he was so proud of his "knife edge" sears, and so worried about damage to them from the half cock notch that he ground off the notch. He was visited by a lawyer and a couple of cops and "persuaded" to take up another line of work as well as pay for repairs of the guns he had worked on. (It seems he also "forgot" to get an FFL or a business license, pay taxes, or worry about zoning laws.) Last I heard he was fixing lawnmowers.

He should be employed now stamping license plates. And provided free room and board for say...3 to 5 years.
Joe