1911: Good extraction with FLGR, weak/failure to extract with GI Guide Rod

[peacebutready]

Good Day,

I was shooting a 1911 with a full length guide rod, which was extracting spent shells in a nice pattern with good force. I switched to a regular GI guide rod and had two failures to extract within 100 rounds. The casings got stuck like in the 3 point jam position rather than a stovepipe. I noticed some of the successful extractions were weak and shot the casing straight back.

My guess is a lighter recoil spring or more extractor tension is the answer.

This gun comes with the FLGR stock.

The GI guide rod was bought from the same company. They also make GI style 1911s.

Any ideas?

Happy Shooting.

 

[1911Tuner]

What you're describing sounds like a failure to eject, and I can't imagine how a guide rod would have any effect on that unless it's too long and hitting the end of the spring plug, causing short recoil.

A standard "Government Model" guide rod in a Commander-length pistol will do that, and it'll likely bust the bushing for good measure.

Use the plug that came with the FLGR and test fire. If the problem goes away, you've discovered whence the bug nests.

 

[VAPOPO]

And the extractor is likely too tight not loose apparently the spring must be kinking a bit and slowing down the slide velocity causing your problem. A new spring will likely rectify the problem along with an extractor adjustment. And if you are using a shock buff toss it.

 

[1911Tuner]

apparently the spring must be kinking a bit and slowing down the slide velocity

Internet myth. The spring can't kink or bind with a standard guide rod.

Study this old fluroscope photograph. It reveals a lot, including blowing holes in the belief that the recoil spring can deflect enough to kink or bind.

There's less than an inch/5 coils that are unsupported on the ID by the guide, and the OD by the plug. That unsupported section is fully supported by the time the slide moves an inch...and at full travel, is completely encapsulated.

 

[Jim K]

Could be limp-wristing and the extra weight of the FLGR provides just enough resistance that ejection is adequate.

Jim

 

[WardenWolf]

More likely the gun has a somewhat loose slide to frame fit, and the extractor also is not quite long enough. The full-length guide rod simply removes some of the play from the slide, allowing the extractor to work properly.

 

[peacebutready]

I think I found the problem.

The stock FLGR has a base that is shaped different than usual. The face part of the base that is closest to the rear is beveled. The GI rod they sent me does not have this bevel. As a result the GI rod wobbles around, since this particular barrel (stock) needs a beveled guide rod. Gun is a RIA Tactical.

I need to take a pic when I get a chance.

Happy shooting (if there's any ammo available).

 

[1911Tuner]

The stock FLGR has a base that is shaped different than usual. The face part of the base that is closest to the rear is beveled. The GI rod they sent me does not have this bevel. As a result the GI rod wobbles around, since this particular barrel (stock) needs a beveled guide rod.

Don't waste your time searching for a beveled GI type guide. That's not the problem anyway. When the guide is installed in the gun, there won't be any wobble.

That bevel is there to provide clearance for the link in pistols shorter than GM length, but not all FLGRs have the bevel. The "One Piece" FLGRs are all two-piece, with the rod screwed into the flanged end...with different lengths for different applications. Rather than tool up to make beveled and non-beveled ends, somebody made the decision to make'em all the same. A matter of logistics. No more and no less.

We can't make a call on why the gun gives problems with the standard guide is installed without actually seeing it.

 

[Greg528iT]

I'm still waiting to hear if it's a Commander or shorter length gun with possibly a GI guide rod for a 5". Pictures of the end of the offending guide should tell us if it is striking the end of the cap.

 

[1911Tuner]

I'm still waiting to hear if it's a Commander or shorter length gun with possibly a GI guide rod for a 5".

Very possible, but it would have likely beaten the end of the plug out or busted the bushing flange within just a few rounds...or both.

 

[Greg528iT]

I was going with what you said in post #2. With a possibility that it didn't bust thru the plug but was just touching enough.

 

[1911Tuner]

A standard GI guide rod in a Commander with a closed plug will stop the slide almost a quarter-inch before it hits the impact abutment. Trust me. It woulda busted the bushing and probably the slide.

 

[Greg528iT]

IF it was a standard GI guide rod, and not an approximation of one. say a bit short.

Initially you say "likely" I'm sure cause you didn't know exactly what guide rod was in there, or even if it's a Commander length gun.

 

[1911Tuner]

IF it was a standard GI guide rod, and not an approximation of one. say a bit short.

The standard GI rod is quite a bit longer than the Commander's standard rod. I don't have the exact dimensions, but it's obvious when they're compared. So "just a bit short" wouldn't have made any difference...IF this is what happened. We still don't know.

Initially you say "likely" I'm sure cause you didn't know exactly what guide rod was in there, or even if it's a Commander length gun.

I didn't know what length gun or whether the correct rod was in place. The guide rod and plug are usually sold as a set unless otherwise specified by the customer. Since the standard plug won't fit into a Commander slide, that would have tipped him that something was wrong.

But at this point, it's all conjecture. We don't know enough yet to make the call.

I said "likely" because all bushings aren't created equal. Some will absorb a good bit of punishment. Some will bend and not break. Some will bust on the first whack.

The ones that take several blows without breaking or bending can also cause the slide to crack or fail outright in the bushing lug raceway, where the material is thin, and a sharp machined corner is present. I saw that happen to a Colt Commander from the spring stacking solid before the slide hit the impact abutment. In that case, the spring, plug, and bushing stopped the slide only about one coil's thickness short...and an enhanced stainless slide was ruined before the magazine went dry. Other than light damage to the lug, the bushing survived. The slide didn't.

If the slide had held, the bushing would probably have let go within a few more rounds. Like the man said: "Sooner or later, somethin's gotta give."

 

[moxie]

Why not just go back to the stock rod? Seems it was working perfectly.

 

[peacebutready]

5"

I'm still waiting to hear if it's a Commander or shorter length gun with possibly a GI guide rod for a 5".

It's a regular 5" gun. Not a Commander.

 

[peacebutready]

Clarification

Don't waste your time searching for a beveled GI type guide. That's not the problem anyway. When the guide is installed in the gun, there won't be any wobble.

I'm not sure if I should have used the term beveled. Half of the height of the end of the FLGR is curved down. This allows the rod to be closer to the barrel part where the link attaches to.

I noticed after shooting with the GI guide rod the recoil spring was curved and not straight. I think it's kinking due to bad fit of the GI rod. I need to take a pic.

 

[1911Tuner]

I think it's kinking due to bad fit of the GI rod. I need to take a pic.

It can't "kink" or deflect. Go back and look at the picture in post #4.

If the spring stacks solid before the slide hits the impact abutment, it can damage it to the point that it'll be bent when it's at its free length...but the curve itself isn't causing your problem, and a spec spring won't stack up solid in a 5-inch gun.

 

[Mike J]

Why not just go back to the stock rod? Seems it was working perfectly.

I was just wondering the same thing. It seems like a sensible suggestion to me.

 

[peacebutready]

Why not just go back to the stock rod? Seems it was working perfectly.

The stock one is the FLGR. It is one piece, solid steel, makes the gun heavy, and is more difficult to break-down. If it was 10mm instead of .45, I'd probably leave it in.

 

[peacebutready]

Finally pics

Left to right: Barrel with link, GI & FLGR, FLGR in slide with spring and open ended plug, GI guide rod with spring and GI plug in slide.

Note the sloping bevel on the face of the FLGR.

Other object is a pen to hold it in place.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I noticed some of the successful extractions were weak and shot the casing straight back.

Ejecting straight back is a sign of a weak recoil spring. What's happening is the recoil spring is not driving the slide back fast enough to hit the case while it's exiting the ejection port. Because the case is coming straight back as it leaves the chamber, it continues nearly straight back if not hit by the slide moving forward.