1911 grip bushing question

[dbshabo]

Tried to replace the grips on a 1911 last night. One of the grip bushings came out of the frame still tightly attached to the grip screw. Any suggestions on how to separate the two without ruining the bushing?

Why are the bushings used anyway?

Shabo

 

[HankL]

Tighten the screw and bushing back into the frame. From the other side, with the grip removed re stake the offending bushing with a pin punch.
HTH

 

[dbshabo]

What do you mean restake the bushing? What do I do with the punch? Sorry for my ignorance, and thanks for your help.

Shabo

 

[Old Fuff]

The reason Browning used bushings was so that they could be replaced if they were stripped or otherwise damaged. Much better idea then having to replace the whole frame.

You can restake the bushing as previously suggested, but I'd try this first.

1. Get some "red" Loctite thread sealer. It's usually available at better hardware stores.

2. Also get a good degreaser, such as Acetone. Take the frame outside and use a q-tip to swab out the inside of the bushing hole in the frame. It is very important to remove any trace of oil or grease inside the hole, but not otherwise.

3. Also use a second q-tip to degrease the threaded part of the bushing that is still in the grip. Be careful because the Acetone can attack plastics or rubber if you have a plastic or rubber grip. All you need to degrease is the exposed threads on the bushing.

4. Use a clean q-tip to swab some red loctite inside the bushing hole in the frame. Don’t overdo it - a little goes a long way. Don’t put any loctite on the bushing itself.

5. Replace the grip, and screw the bushing back into the frame by turning the screw. Seat it firmly, but again don’t overdo it.

6. Wait overnight - or even 24 hours - and then try to remove the screw again. Be sure to use a screwdriver that fits the screw slot or you will ruin it. Avoid getting any loctite on the grip screw threads, just on the bushing itself.

 

[HankL]

Look closely at the edge of the hole that the bushing threads into from the inside of the frame. You will likely see where there are some small dimples in the metal. A pin punch is used to displace a small amount of metal at the junction of the bushing and the hole in the frame causing the bushing not to turn.
You could also try using some loctite being careful not to get any between the grip screw and bushing.
HTH
edited to add: Old Fluff beat me to the punch. Besides that, he has a much better way with words than I do.

 

[Old Fuff]

Hank:

"Da Fuff" is a professional writer in the firearms field.

But that doesn't necessarily mean he knows anything ......

 

[dbshabo]

Thanks Old Fuff and Hank. Sounds like good advice and I'll give it a try tonight.

Shabo

 

[Old Fuff]

If you decide to try and re-stake the bushing get two pieces of wood large enough to support the frame and place them on each side of the grip. Otherwise you will be pounding on the grip. Also be sure the plunger tube on the left side of the frame isn't resting on anything hard. Otherwise you could deform it.

Brownells (www.brownells.com) make a special tool for staking bushings that does a great job, but you have to get the bushing and grip seperated first.

Given your apparent lack of experience and tools I'd try the Loctite method first. Less chance of damaging something else.

 

[1911Tuner]

Loctite

Old Fluff's suggestion will probably work. After the loctite has had time to
set, tap lightly on the screw head with a small hammer with a screwdriver in the slot. This will loosen any rust, and make the screw easier to back out.

Okay then...FLUFF! Time to come clean...Who are ya? Your secret's safe with me.

Tuner

P.S. I still thing those bushings oughta be left-hand threaded.

 

[tiberius]

P.S. I still thing those bushings oughta be left-hand threaded.

So when you tighten your grip screw, the bushing loosens up on you???

 

[HankL]

I'll second the motion on the loctite idea. If you go with the staking idea I concur with Old Fuff's advice. You can attach the grip sideways to it's normal position and have a little more area to block under.

 

[1911Tuner]

Leftie Loosie, Rightie Tightie

Tiberius asked:

So when you tighten your grip screw, the bushing loosens up on you???

Not if the bushing is staked in and ya don't try to put 50 foot pounds of torque on the screw when ya put the grips on.

Make sense?

Tuner

 

[tiberius]

1911tuner

No it doesn't make sense......at least not from an overall design approach.

Of course the grips can be easily R&R'd without affecting the bushings if the bushings are properly staked. This applies whichever "handedness" the threads are. All of the problems occur when the bushings are either not properly staked, or the staking fails in some way. So let's look at what happens when the bushing is NOT staked:

RHT bushing - the grip panel can be installed properly, but when removed, the bushing MAY remain attached to the grip screw. This can add extra complexity to a complete detail strip or grip substitution, but does not affect the use of the weapon in any way.

LHT bushing - A loose bushing may prevent you from being able reassemble the grip since the bushing can back out as you are tightening the grip screw. This can be problematic to confident use of the gun.

I freely admit, the I could live with either design and be able to work around either of the above problems, but the LHT design seems to be susceptible to more serious problems.

As you like to say sometimes "Maybe Browning really did know what was doing"?

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

When you reinstall the grips, after installing the bushings, oil the threads on the grip screws.

 

[1911Tuner]

Here we go...

RHT bushing - the grip panel can be installed properly, but when removed, the bushing MAY remain attached to the grip screw. This can add extra complexity to a complete detail strip or grip substitution, but does not affect the use of the weapon in any way.
---------------------------------------------------------
True enough, but have you ever seen a screw that didn't thread into the bushing pretty easily, whether or not the bushing was staked? How many
have you seen that wouldn't come OUT easily? Rust. Overtightened.
The grip screws don't have to be more than barely snug to retain the
grip panels. Turning the screw with enough force to back the screw out
tightens the LHT bushing instead of bringing it out with the screw.

LHT bushing - A loose bushing may prevent you from being able reassemble the grip since the bushing can back out as you are tightening the grip screw. This can be problematic to confident use of the gun.
---------------------------------------------------------
Take note of the screw slot in the bushing. It's there for a reason.



As you like to say sometimes "Maybe Browning really did know what was doing"?

Sure he did...but I also think that he paid only passing attention to certain
areas of the pistol, while focusing on more important aspects. Look at the
plunger tube. Look at the original, hand-eating grip safety and hammer spur arrangement of the pre 1911A1...

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[tiberius]

Take note of the screw slot in the bushing. It's there for a reason.

Cute.

While you make a good case for an unconventional design, it is none-the-less a poor design in general engineering terms. The simple fact is that by over-tightening the grip screw, the boss will unscrew.

You are a skilled gunsmith who would not over-tighten a screw by this much, but there are many users who would. As a gunsmith, you would like this feature because it would aid you in your skilled maintenance of the firearm. As a design engineer, I could never release this type of design because it would cause lots of problems for less skilled users, especially in the field.

 

[Old Fuff]

On staking grip bushings ......

Once upon a time during the dark ages a well known company in the State of Connecticut made .45 pistols, and among other things they cut a countersink around the grip screw bushing holes inside the magazine well. The purpose of this was to allow the bushing to flare when it was staked, and when everything was done right the bushings usually stayed put.

But then an evil bean-counter came along and said, "cut out the countersink and we can save a few pennies per gun." So lo and behold this was done. Thereafter they still staked the bushing, but not into a countersink.

Then one day the bean-counter said, "we could put some glue (thread sealant) on the threads and cut out having to stake the bushings." So this too was done.

But I don't think it worked too well because people brought me guns where the bushing had backed out and there was no sign of it ever having been staked, nor was there any trace of a countersink within the frame.

Now I don't mean to pick on the folks in Connecticut, because to be frank a lot of others were doing the same thing. Everyone you know, likes to save a few pennies here, a buck there ….. However I did learn from the experience too do the following:

Remove the grips of your own personal gun(s) and look and see if the frame is countersunk around the grip bushing holes, and if the bushings are, or are not staked. In most cases I think you will find that they are, and the older the gun the better your chances are. However you can't go wrong because eyeballing is still free, although I sure the government is trying to find a way to tax it.

It is also recommended in some quarters that once a bushing comes out it should be replaced with a new one, rather then put the old one back. This may have merit, but unless the old bushing is in some way damaged I usually do put it back, and so far this has seemed to work out O.K. I’m not sure what John Browning would have done, but I am sure he knew what he was doing, bean-counters not withstanding.

 

[1911Tuner]

Ah well...

Tiberius...I reckon we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Yep...There are people who would overtighten the grip screws. I used
to have to replace and restake bushings a lot because of that, because
over torquing the screws will not only loosen the staking, it'll strip
threads and cause the bushings to back with the screw. People like that often wring lug studs off changing a tire, too. Nothing to be done except warn them in the owner's manual, hope for the best, and fix'em when they ignore the caveat. I used to work with a guy like that. We called him
Old Gutentite. Sometimes we called him "Snap".

I'll have to stand pat with a few "IFs". IF the bushing is staked properly,
and IF the man installing the grips doesn't use torque that would sprain
a gorilla's wrist...a LHT bushing would stay put AND help to prevent
backing out with the screw when the threads get a little rusty, because
the effort required to break the threads loose would work to tighten the bushing instead of loosening it. Makes sense to me, anyway.

Speaking of LHTs...Remember the Mopars that had LHTs on the lugs
on the right side of the car? The same theory was in effect there. The turning wheels worked to tighten the lugnuts on both sides of the car
instead of tightening on one side and loosening on the other. It
worked too...I don't know if Chrysler still does this or not, since I
haven't worked at a gas station in years.

Be of good cheer and mindful of your six.

Tuner

 

[dsk]

Colt now stakes their bushings again, FWIW. It's great in preventing loose bushings, not so great if you plan to remove the bushings in order to polish the frame.

Ordnance specs called for the bushings to be staked, as they were never intended to be removed unless the pistol was undergoing a major overhaul.

 

[dbshabo]

Well I took my 1911 out last night to clean out the bushing threads on the frame and on the stuck bushing in preparation to use the loctite as was suggested by Old Fuff and HankL. I looked at the other 3 bushing holes inside the magwell. I doesn't appear to me that any of the bushings are staked. I may not know what I'm looking at. I was expecting to see a couple small dimples at the edge of each bushing. The stuck bushing and it's mounting hole in the frame did have some sort of sealant residue in the threads.

This is my first 1911 pistol. I have only had this gun to the range once and was very impressed with it's feel and accuracy. The trigger blows doors on my Berreta 92FS 9mm. Too bad they didn't go the extra little bit and stake these bushings. I would have paid a couple bucks more for it. It's little touches like that that builds a good rep for a company in my opinion. Too bad the beancounters have so much pull these days.

I didn't mention that this is a stainless gun. Would that make any difference in the decision to stake these little buggers or not? Is stainless steel softer than other steels? I also didn't mention the make of this gun, well it's a S&W. That should give the Smith haters something else to use against the gun. I'll get it fixed and live happily ever after, I hope.

Shabo

 

[1911Tuner]

Just in case

The loctite doesn't hold'em...next go 'round use a little JB Weld and
degrease as before. That'll hold'em. I used the stuff on a loose
plunger tube on a heavy-use beater 10 years ago, and it hasn't moved.

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[BluesBear]

It's a S&W?

There's the problem. You don't have one defective bushing you have THREE.

The other three are supposed to come off with the grips too.
This way you don't lose the screws. Send it back to S&W and demand they loosen up those other three.





Sorry y'all it's been one of those weeks and I just HAD to do it.

 

[Old Fuff]

dbshabo:

The material (high-carbon steel vs. stainless) shouldn't matter. I can't say if S&W stakes their grip bushings or not as I haven't had an opportunity to check one concerning this particular feature.

dsk:

I am aware that Colt, as well as others, have had an "on-again/off-again" policy when it comes to staking grip bushings. That's why I suggested that individual owners inspect their own guns to see what the situation was pertaining to these guns.