1911 slide release question.

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WonderNine

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Why did they put it so far ahead? It's almost impossible for me to manipulate without taking my hand off of the grip or using my left hand. And I don't have short fingers at all! On Beretta's, Brownings, no problem. 1911's? No way I can reach it.
 
Hmm...blah, I like being able to do it with my right hand thumb after slamming the mag home. At least that's what I'm used to. I would imagine there are plenty of extended slide releases as aftermarket parts, but I was just wondering why so many still come stock with the short version that's very hard to reach.
 
Extended slide stops used to be popular for a number of years, at least until people finally realized the extra weight and inertia combined to cause the slide stop to activate and lock the slide back all the time.

I am so used to shifting the pistol slightly to trip the slide release that I hardly think of it anymore. Still others feel you really should pull the slide back to release it anyway.
 
"Still others feel you really should pull the slide back to release it anyway."
Click to expand...

Hmm, you know what, you're probably right. I'm sure it's alot nicer to the slide cutout and slide release lever. I think I'll start doing that instead.

But in emergencies, I still think it's nice to be able to do it easily with one hand. And it's faster.

Also, I've found that alot of premature slide lockbacks occur simply from your thumb hitting the slide release button during recoil.

This also at times causes failure to lock back on the last shot IME. Sometimes you don't even realize you did it.
 
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The Slidelock Issue

Hooo BOY! This one has been debated a lot. Still a valid question, though.

Yes, it's a little awkward to shift the pistol in your hand to thumb it down
with the right thumb, but think about what doing that AND using the mag release forces you to do...It makes it necessary to take your finger out of
the trigger guard. Whether this is by accident or design, only one man can
answer, and he's long been dead.

Another point is one that dsk touched on, and one that I subscribe to.
Namely, that the slide should be released via the slingshot method
for all casual or practice situations, and thumbed down in emergencies
to save wear and tear on the slide and the stop.

On the failure to lock after the last round, it's interesting to think about
how little attention that JMB gave to the function and the related parts.
It could have easily been made more reliable and robust. Why wasn't it?
He put so much thought and effort into the live function of the pistol, and the slidelock almost seemed like an afterthought. Maybe it was his intent
that the gun be reloaded with a hot chamber. The detachable box magazine is a clue. Remember that the inability to be topped off with a
round under the hammer was one of the biggest drawbacks of the M-1
Garand, and ultimately led to the development of the M-14, which is really
just an improved Garand.

I've often pointed out that a locked, empty pistol is really an engineered
stoppage, and likened it to surgery, which is engineered trauma. Neither
one is desired and both should be avoided unless necessary. You can
reload the pistol and get it back into action faster with the chamber loaded
than you can from a locked slide simply because there are fewer motions
involved, and less chance of a fumble when you reach for the release under
stress. Also because YOU choose the time to reload rather than the pistol
choosing it for you. That lockback will likely come as a surprise, and your
reaction time to it will have to figure in. In the event of a slidelock reload,
you can also release it more positively with the left thumb as you reattain
a firing grip on the gun. Less chance of a fumble because the thumb is in position, and less chance of dropping the gun because of the loose grip
when the pistol is shifted in your hand to reach the release lever.

Most of the accredited defensive schools will tell you that if, during the
Funhouse/Hogan's Alley stage of your training, you allow the pistol to
go dry, you will be judged killed.

Careful thought has brought me to these conclusions. What say you?

Cheers all!
Tuner
 
Careful thought has brought me to these conclusions. What say you?
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should be more careful... :evil:

The problem with most of these discussions is they are trying to reason how and an old design should fit a modern practice. Combat, as well as recreational, handgunning was in a far different state in the early 1900s than it is in the early 2000s, and I really don't think that JMB was thinking THIS far ahead. :scrutiny:
 
Thinking Ahead

Combat, as well as recreational, handgunning was in a far different state in the early 1900s than it is in the early 2000s,

A valid point, and absolutely correct, but real life and death struggles were...and are pretty much the same. To wit: Whoever gets there
firstest with the mostest usually wins. An early design, the '96 Mauser,
didn't have a detachable magaazine, and although it was state-fo-the-art,
it had obvious shortcomings. Browning studied other designs intently, and
borrowed the ideas freely to make the very best that he could. The P-08 was one such design. I think it would be a safe bet that he saw the advantage of a detachable magazine immediately, and for all the reasons stated. While he may not have forseen the use of his pistol for the recent
combat games, he was fully aware of what his pistol would eventually be
used for.

Today, the combat infantryman sees a pistol as an emergency backup weapon. In 1911, it was to be the primary weapon for mounted cavalry...
an offensive weapon. Who knows...If he had been around to see John
garand's rifle, he may have tapped him on the shoulder and whispered in
his ear. "Pssst. Ya might wanna rethink that en-bloc clip idea."


I really don't think that JMB was thinking THIS far ahead.

Hard to speculate on that one. I've been trying to get into his head for
most of my life, and more things pop up all the time.

Cheers!
Tuner
 
i'm left handed, so it doesn't effect me in the least. I use my trigger finger to manipulate the slide release.
 
It may have been that JMB did design the 1911 with a specific purpose and goal in mind, but we today are trying to deviate from that and trying to call it his short sightedness. I say before we place blame on him, let's look at what we are doing first.
People have forever fumbled with loading a single action revolver, but Sam Colt was left handed and built the SAA for his ease of loading. We need to realize the inventers had a plan in mind and built things to the best of their abilities using their personal experience.
 
Tuner,

Its funny how you keep "knocking" the Garand's en-bloc clip, while I know several combat marines from the WWII/Korean era who swear AT removable box magazines.

To them, the BEST feature of the Garand was the fact that ammunition came from the crate ready to be inserted into the rifle... and could be stored that way for long, long, long periods. These old marines tell me they became quite adept at ejecting and then putting loose rounds into those clips during lulls in the action. That way they started any new action with a full rifle.

Box magazines are nice if you have an infinite supply of full ones.... but supply lines are not always dependable and going from nearly out of ammo to full again required that all important, and tortuously slow if under fire, step of first filling the magazine before the rifle is back in action.

I'm told that the BAR was a (2-man) crew served weapon at that time for just this reason... with the second man having the sole responsibility of stuffing magazines for the man on the trigger.

So, perhaps JMB would have wispered in John G's ear, but I think there are lots of combat vets who would have shouted him down if they'd known! :D
 
Sam Colt was left handed
Click to expand...
Mebbe so, but he was well dead before the SAA ever appeared on the market. Somewhere around 1862 or so ole (actually young) Sam kicked the bucket.
 
Could I get a description of this sling-shot method. I've always used the slide release. Didn't know there was another way....I learned to shoot on Ruger P-series pistols and just always used the slide release with those.

What I'm thinking is that the slide release would still need to be held down while pulling the slide with the other hand??? Or is the 1911 designed to just drop the slide release when the pressure is removed that holds it in place???

Thanks for this great information.
 
Knockin' the Garand

Howdy 9X19,

I'm not knocking it, just pointing out its shortcomings, that were evidently
shared by many others. The fact that combat infantrymen learned to
work around the problem of keeping the rifle topped off is tribute to the
resourcefulness of the average grunt who has his fanny in the hot spot.
Witness the M-1 Carbine "Jungle Clip" where two magazines were taped or welded together for a faster reload than from the web gear. Sometimes
there just isn't much of a lull in the action to allow topping off, and as noted
earlier, the locked, empty weapon will likely come as a surprise. If a position is close to being overrun, split seconds count. The time it takes to react to that surprise and reload may be too much time.

Consider also that if the Garand's bolt locking device fails, loading a
fresh en-bloc clip is slow and clumsy at best...torturously slow when
things are moving fast and furious...and potentially lethal. Not so with
a box magazine. Much faster to insert a fresh magazine, yank the
charging handle, and carry on.

Each design had its strong and weak points. Both were very good rifles,
and either would serve well. As for the problem of magazine supply, that
was addressed by the issuance of bandoliers of stripper clips that could be
used to top off the magazine in or out of the rifle, which is also faster than
fumbling with loose rounds loading a Garand clip when you're scared, wounded, shell-shocked, probably rushed, and maybe with fingers that are bordering on frostbite. The veterans of "Frozen Chosin" may have been
happier with the M-14 had they had a chance to use it against the human
wave attacks that the North Koreans and Chinese were so fond of.

Another point is that, in the above overrun scenario, most entrenched
riflemen will stack their magazines on the ground beside them to save as
much time as possible...this has been my experience...and the box stands
a better chance of keeping dirt and grit out of the ammunition than the
en-bloc clip, which was pretty open to such things unless it was kept in the
web gear. Cold fingers and/or frantic action plays into the scene again,
and it becomes a choice of possibly contaminated ammo that will jam the
rifle, or a painfully slow reload with clean ammo. Flip a coin.

Good debate. It gives everybody a chance to look at something from all
angles and make a better informed decision.

Cheers!

Tuner
 
Slingshot

gharsh, the slingshot is the same as inserting a loaded magazine with
the slide in battery, yanking it to the rear and letting it go, and it can be
done from slidelock. Pulling the slide past the locked position pushes the
stop down so the notch can get past it. Look at the shape of the front
of the notch and the back of the stop lug. Those are camming angles.

The variation to the slingshot is the overhand release. The weak hand
goes palm down on top of the slide with the thumb and fingers on the
grasping serrations, thumb pointed rearward. A quick push disengages the
stop, and lets the slide go to battery. The slide should be allowed to run forward at full speed rather than "riding it home". The exception is when
the gun is empty. The slide should never be allowed to slam at full speed
on an empty chamber.

I've heard from people who have seen footage of John Browning operating
the 1911, and the report is that he released the slide in this fashion.



Cheers!
Tuner
 
Tuner,

Tealk to me about the efficiency of box magazines in a running gun battle, where the empties get left behind, sometimes stepped on by the guys coming up behind you, and even lost in the muck of a swampy battlefield. We can agrue scenarios back and forth for days (been there with my dad), but there is little real point, as I've been thoroughly convinced by some pretty impressive figures, that far from being a shortcoming, there are indeed real merits to the en-bloc clip design of the Garand

My father is a retired USMC Infantryman, and veteran of the Korean and Viet Nam conflicts.... he was around when the M1 was standard issue, and was still there when the M14, and later M16s came on the scene... and he will argue with you, forcefully, the merits of the en-bloc clip vs box magazines... I know he has with me! :D

Additionally I suspect (sincerely hope) that our combat logistics are much improved over that of the second world war, and Korean conflicts... and that we never have to fight a multi-theater war again to prove it!

Happy Holdiays to you and yours.
 
Vietnam

Howdy 9X19...Your father and I probably weren't there during the same time, but possibly in some of the same areas.

I've seen and done some of those things in the paddies and the mud,
and you are on the money about magazines getting dropped and lost,
but like the old Sargeant Major in "We Were Soldiers" noted..
"If I have need of one, there'll be plenty layin' around." My father, too,
was an ETO veteran, and was one of the Battered Bastards of Bastogne
in the Ardennes campaign. He told me that the unspoken understanding was that any KIA was immediately relieved of his ammo load. It's still
in effect today, as it was in "Eye Corps" RVN.

Combat infantrymen typically scroundg all the spares that they can manage to beg, borrow, and steal if they are expecting something, and would dump the "C's" out of their rucks in order to carry more magazines.

Many of the WW2 vets that were still doin' the walk when the M-14 came into the picture didn't like them and preferred the Garand...just like old
die-hards like myself don't care for the newer autopistols...Glock...
Sig, and the like. We're more comfortable with what we have experience
with and just plain don't like change. My father handled an M-14 and didn't care as much for it as the Garand, although he did like the 20 rounds on tap.

I didn't care for the M-16 either, and preferred the 14...but I did like the
ability to carry twice as much ammo, albeit less powerful. I learned to
work around Jammin' Jenny's shortcomings, and it served pretty well.
Would still have preferred the 14, but I got home alive, so the point
is still debateable as to whether I would have been any better off with
the 14. Fewer rounds carried may have gotten me a spot on the wall.
Who can say?

Have a blessed Christmas, and tell your dad hello...one paddy rat to another.

Johnny
 
johnny , thing was jmb didn't listen to the army flacks when designing the 1911 ... he talked to a lot of the 'hard boys' what had been and done ...
he knew when he put it together that it was made to work with people who were going to fight and kill under conditions that would make most of you pee yourselves ...
of course the army hacks got their .02 in and had to f up everything that they could ...
read the offical documents about WHY the M1 was burdened with the en-bloc clip and all those extra parts...
it will scare the crap outta you...
 
Tuner,

I hear you... my 20 years was spent with the M16 (A1 and later A2) as the issue weapon. Familiarity with those is why I still own a civvy version from Bushmaster... and I trust it to do its job. My USGI M1 Carbines are favorites at family shoots, especially among the kids, and I also own a few pistols of the 1911 style as well as more modern designs.

My dad thinks that rifle development ended with the Garand and pistols with the 1911A1. I've not been able to convince him otherwise, and frankly, have given up trying. They saw him through a rough and ragged career (along with the Browning light .30 which he humped around Korea, although he wasn't as fond of it ~ something about not liking the extra attention that weapon earned him with the enemy (though he was only wounded twice!) :D )

Good day...
 
Hello. With the deepest respect for the vets' experiences with certain older long guns as well as their guts and service to the country, and even with the tangential relationship to the subject at hand, we're sort of experiencing topic drift.

Let's focus back on the original poster's question.

Thanks to all in advance.

Best.
 
Garands and 1911s

My dad thinks that rifle development ended with the Garand and pistols with the 1911A1

He's got a lotta company in that regard. I'm an M-14 man myself,
but the Garand is Grand in much the same way as the 1911. Old
and outdated in some schools of thought, but still able to take care of
bidness if the need arises.

Stephen is right. We've drifted off topic. My apologies. The question was
why was the slide release not designed to be easier to operate with one
hand?

My point was, and has been for some time, that its function is primarily a
slide stop, and secondarily a slidelock...and that it shouldn't be allowed
to lock the slide if it can be helped. The ability to release the slide from
slidelock is an additional option in case of emergency or having one hand
disabled or tied up holding onto the reins of a horse.

A third possibility is that it's meant to keep the slide from slamming on an empty chamber in the event that the shooter does shoot it dry...

Study it, and try several different methods of releasing the slide to find
one that suits you and practice it so that it will become an automatic
response. For me, reaching for it after a reload with my weak hand thumb
is faster and more positive than the strong hand thumb release OR the
slingshot.

Cheers all, and Have a safe and happy Christmas!

Tuner
 
Stephen,

Tuner did it, Tuner did it!!! :D

My apologies for taking part in the hi-jacking. :uhoh:

I'm in the more modern school that uses the weak hand to hit the slide stop as part of the same motion used in reloading/reaquiring a two hand hold.

In that regard the standard slide stop works quite well for me.
 
I think the standard sized slide stop and magazine release were/are attempts to idiot proof the pistol as it was a military weapon first and foremost. I have see guys inadvertently tip up the extended slide stops and lock their gun in the midst of shooting. I have also seen the dime-sized mag release buttons tapped and mags dropped in the middle of a shooting stage. Not very confidence inspiring as an onlooker. Embarrassing to the competitor. :uhoh:

Just goes to show you when they make something foolproof, somebody develops a more ingenious fool. :D
 
At Tactical Response we prefer and teach the overhand method where you reach over the top of the slide and grasp it at the rear with your palm on one side and your four fingers on the other. Pull to the rear and release without riding the slide forward. The reason we teach this is because it is a gross motor skill and using the slide release with whatever finger you choose to use is a fine motor skill. Research and experience has shown us that under the effects of adrenaline your ability to do tasks that require the use of fine motor skills becomes impaired and sometimes even lost, while gross motor skills remain unnaffected. Another reason is due to commonality of training. We teach the overhand method when doing a Tap-Rack to clear type one and two malfunctions and by using the same method when doing an emergency reload you are training yourself to do three skills basically the same way instead of a different method for each. As an example we teach our students to rack the slide in this method even when doing a tactical reload as it insures a live round is in the chamber as some firearms have a tendency to not always lock the slide open on the last round.
 
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