1911 slide release question.

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Tracy H,

So...... is manipulating the trigger a fine motor skill... or a gross motor skill? :rolleyes:

If it's a fine motor skill (as I suspect) and if one can train, and apparently become accomplished at that skill under stress, why then certainly there's room for one more, eh? :scrutiny:

Or perhaps y'all fear that some can only handle one fine motor skill per stressful event?

Is there a limit?

Can I get a Federal grant to study this?

:neener:
 
Fine and Gross Motors

Dependin' on how high the pucker factor is, it can do some pretty funky things to your gross motor skills too. Ask me how I know...:uhoh: :D

The overhand slide rack addresses a stovepipe failure to eject, too.
The hand over the slide can be employed to wipe the empty out of the port as the shooter racks the slide. It's one small extra move that can be smoothly incorporated into the action. High-stress scenarios make a limp-wrist grip more probable, and this type of stoppage is likely with the wrong
grip.

Again, the key is to study the problem of the best way for you..the individual...to rfelease the slide, and/or clear a malfunction. Using your
imagination and trying different approaches will provide the answer to the problem. Find the method that YOU are most comfortable witn and practice the move or series of moves relentlessly. Repetition produces muscle and
nerve memory, which in turn, makes the motions autoresponsive. That won't make the method fool-proof, but it will lessen the chances of a fumble.

Cheers all!

Tuner
 
WonderNine wondered:
I've found that alot of premature slide lockbacks occur simply from your thumb hitting the slide release button during recoil.
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Sounds like your grip is wrong... Errr, causing you a problem. Are you using a "high thumbs hold" to avoid accidentally bumping the safety on during shooting?

You could try a "low thumbs hold". That would be thumbs parallel to the barrel. No problems here with either lever and I do prefer extended safeties on my 1911s.
 
Tracy H,

So...... is manipulating the trigger a fine motor skill... or a gross motor skill?

If it's a fine motor skill (as I suspect) and if one can train, and apparently become accomplished at that skill under stress, why then certainly there's room for one more, eh?

Or perhaps y'all fear that some can only handle one fine motor skill per stressful event?

Is there a limit?
Click to expand...

9x19
Thank you for the reply, I will try and answer your question as best I can. You are correct, manipulation of the trigger is a fine motor skill and under the effects of Adrenaline (I did not say Stress) manipulation of the trigger will not be as smooth and effective as it would be on the range. You can still manipulate the trigger under these circumstances and if there were a way to effectively do so using Gross Motor Skills then I am sure we would be teaching it. At Tactical Response we train our students to fight with a firearm and all of our training is based upon the premise that you will have to use that firearm to defend your life under the worst possible conditions. Knowing what the effects of Adrenaline will have upon ones body leads us to beleive that training our students in skills that will allow them to overcome these effects and continue to fight effectively is our primary job. As an example, we train our students to do a 360 degree scan after every drill to insure that there are no other bad guy that you need to fight. Doing this scan serves another purpose as well. By turning your head it helps to break "Tunnel Vision" and tells your brain that you are looking and you need your peripheral vision back. If you are training to win an IDPA match then of course you will probably be quicker in using the slide release. The stress of shooting a match will not have the same effects upon your body that Adrenaline will in a fight for your life. Any of the post I make regarding tactics will be based upon the assumption that these skills are used to defend your life and not win a match unless otherwise stated. I am not knocking competition shooting as I am a competitor myself, it is just the skills and mindset required to win a match are different than those used to save your life. I am a Tactical Firearms instructor and it is my job to insure that my students have the skills and ability to prevail in a fight for their lives.
 
Tracey that was a nice way of skipping around the question, but the question was if you can teach a fine motor skill for trigger manipulation then why not a fine motor skill for slide lock disengagement? The actions are not done together so there is no thought process confusion.
 
Tracey that was a nice way of skipping around the question, but the question was if you can teach a fine motor skill for trigger manipulation then why not a fine motor skill for slide lock disengagement? The actions are not done together so there is no thought process confusion.
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Majic,
I did answer the question. I agreed with 9x19 in that using fine motor skills is the only way you can manipulate the trigger. I said that if you could use gross motor skills to manipulate the trigger then I would probably be teaching it. I beleive that under the effects of Adrenaline your fine motor skills will be degraded and that some things you will just have to deal with and fight on. My point was where there is a skill that can be done using either a fine motor skill or a gross motor skill I will always opt to teach a student to use a gross motor skill as they will be more capable of performing it in a gun fight. I agee that you can train someone to use fine motor skills to accomplish a slide release, I just choose not to for the reasons stated. You are right, the actions are not done together, but it has nothing to do with your thought process. It is about your ability to physically accomplish the task at hand and if I know that my physical ability to accomplish a task requiring a fine motor skill will be degraded or lost in a gunfught, I want to train in a manner that will allow me to overcome these physical limitations. I am not saying that what I teach is right for everyone as it depends on what your training goals are. If you get some useful information from my post then that is great but remember like everyone else here I am only expressing my opinions and my opinions are based on self defense and may not apply to everyone.
Happy Holidays
 
Tracy,

Don't you find it curious that military small arms are designed with the need to use fine motor skills to prorerly employ? Perhaps they are unfamiliar with the adrenaline dump that can occur in high stress situations.

The mag release and bolt release on the M16s comes to mind... Do you advocate using the charging handle on an M16 reload? :scrutiny:

Perhaps you'd also prefer a long and large diameter mag release button for auto pistols... properly designed, one could likely use the palm of the hand to hit the button when dropping a magazine, rather than relying on their adrenaline-degraded thumb. :uhoh:

:neener:

Just funning with you, I think the whole fine vs gross motor skills argument is hugely over done and really, for the experienced, quite a moot point.

To each according to their tastes tho'... :D
 
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I use an extended slide release on two 1911's and have never had a problem with function yet. They do not lock my slide back prematurely, ever.
 
M-16 Reload

Hey Nine-By! Actually, either one depends on some FMS manipulation.
Best one is to bump the butt on the ground or give it a healthy slap
with the palm of your hand. The mag releases had a tendency to break
off pretty quickly because of the guys hittin'em with the heel of their
hand after a bolt-locked reload. Give it a try. Works good.

Tuner
 
The first time I tried that off-hand over the rear of slide slingshot method during a practice session I ended up with a slight case of M1-Thumb on my pinkie! Woke me up real fast! :D I think I was concentrating too hard on not blowing my elbow off (muzzle control) and the possibility of smashing a loose finger wasn't high enough on my list of things which could go wrong.

It sure looks like a kool method and the logic behind a need for it seems sound but I just went back to pinching the serrations between thumb and forefinger after that little bit of excitement. During action reloads where motor skill would be a factor I activate the slide stop with my thumb since it just happens to be in the right spot as I resume my grip after inserting a new mag. How can this not be faster and less complicated? Moving your hand from the bottom of the grip straight to a normal two handed grip as opposed to bottom to top and back to the side.

Orientation of the firearm in relation to the target is more easily maintained using my method. The hand over method can accomplish this too I believe but not without some difficulty on my part. It is very awkaward (to me) from an ergonimic point of view.

To each his own :) Just watch out for that sarn pinkie finger!
 
Tracy,

Don't you find it curious that military small arms are designed with the need to use fine motor skills to prorerly employ? Perhaps they are unfamiliar with the adrenaline dump that can occur in high stress situations.
Click to expand...

Actually most are designed to use both where possible, (with the exception of the trigger which we have already discussed) :) maybe they knew that there were times that you would manipulate the weapon under battle stress and times when you would not. Or maybe they are unfamiliar as you say.
I was until 1997 when I had a serious industrial accident. Several things happened to me, I had tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and time space distortion. I also was thinking clearly enough to know what I needed to do to save my own life but had difficulty in getting my body to do what I wanted it to. At the time I did not know much about what had happened to me but have since learned that it was Adrenaline.

The mag release and bolt release on the M16s comes to mind... Do you advocate using the charging handle on an M16 reload?
Click to expand...

Actually, yes, the slap method is also a gross motor skill. :)

Perhaps you'd also prefer a long and large diameter mag release button for auto pistols... properly designed, one could likely use the palm of the hand to hit the button when dropping a magazine, rather than relying on their adrenaline-degraded thumb.
Click to expand...

No need to design one, all semi-autos already have one. The Slide. :)

Just funning with you, I think the whole fine vs gross motor skills argument is hugely over done and really, for the experienced, quite a moot point.
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If you are experienced enough to know that in an emergency you will not experience an Adrenaline dump, then I would have to agree as I have made several dynamic entries as a LEO and have never experienced the effects described in my accident that I had not trained for. I just do not think anyone can know for sure that they will not be affected. As I said in an earlier post, we are just expressing our opinions. I know that my post are unlikely to change many opinions but the one thing I like about these forums is the discussions that are created by those differences in opinion and I am really enjoying this one. Gotta go take my daughter shopping. Happy Holidays.
 
My 2 cents.

Adrenaline will affect fine motor skills but not to the degree that one would be unable to operate a slide release or magazine release. It normally causes increased respiratory rates, increased heart rates, and a bit of trembling.

What really hurts folks in bad situations is when fear turns to panic. When they stop thinking clearly and abandon their training it's called panic. It happens when people just aren't ready for the situation that they find themselves in. I've seen some folks that absolutely thrive in the worst predicaments while other's fall completely apart. All you can do is try to develope the proper attitude and have faith in yourself, your training, and your God.

BTW, I normally reach over the top of the slide and pull it to the rear, but I also practice dropping the slide one handed, with either hand, and by using the heel of my shoe on the front sight. You never know how bad things can get because they'll always get much worse than you can imagine. Edited to add: And they always get worse before they get better.

Of course this is just my opinion based on personal experience and I am not a firearms instructor nor a particularly tactical kind of guy.

Regards,
Happyguy:D
 
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Hmm, on my Colt pre-Enhanced Delta Elite the plunger will hold the slide release up even with no magazine inserted meaning I HAVE to drop the slide using the release. I had simply thought this was a "feature" of the gun but maybe my slide release isn't fitted correctly. . .

When I work the slide my left hand wraps over the top and I kick it down the slide release with my left thumb and manage to do it all in one movement but that's a lot to go wrong in a high stress situation. Either I need to fix the slide stop so that it drops on it's own (should require just a little re-shaping where the plunger contacts) or I need to practice just using the slide release.
 
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