1918 Colt 1911 Question

[StrawHat]

I am only recently a 1911 fan. A longtime friend of the family passed away and among his things was a 1911 originally built in 1918. Sometime in the 40s or 50s it was totally rebuilt by a military armorer with arsenal parts. It was also given a reblue comparable to the high bluing from Colt.

It may come up for sale by a family member and I am curious as to a value? If it were totally 1918 original, it would be one thing but with the reblue and replacement parts, I am lost as to value.

If anyone has any thoughts, please let me know. It would be a good reminder of a good friend.

 

[Willie Sutton]

Hard to value. Basically it's likely worth more to you as a momento than it is as any sort of collectors item. Once refinished and rebuilt it's just an interesting old pistol. I've got a similar one, cut and chopped by Austin Behlert many decades ago into what we would now call an "Officers Model". Same sort of thing, a very old 1911 frame with all newer parts and refinished. Value? Uncertain. More or less what a willing buyer and a willing seller agree on.

Willies Guess? I'd be happy at $1000 myself, either buying or selling, just as one data point. If you had one like that and I had a $grand in my pocket I would feel OK about buying at that price. If I had one to sell (like my Behlert one) and you were a friend visiting the house and I liked you, I'd feel OK about letting one go for that.

It'll be interesting to hear other opinions,


Willie

.

 

[BlindJustice]

Built 1918 - that was when Colt was making as many as they
could for the military The M1911 should have
the long trigger & flat Main Spring Housing
is it stamped 'Property of US Giv"? figure if it
was a M1911 it would have a parkeried original finish.
1924 M1911A1 shorter trigger , scllp cuts at the reear of the
trigger / frame, and Arched MSH.

Just giving Strawhat a bit of history

It'd be nice to know the name of the Armorer, and where it
was doone for provenance - Seller could get the
'Colt Letter' confirming DoB

 

[DPris]

In condition stated, only value is as a shooter, and with the original relatively soft slide & frame (non-heat-treated) even the shooter value is low, due to risk of cracking either.

Somewhere between $500-$1000, I'd guess, and I'd not pay anywhere near a thousand on such a gun unless I had very strong familial interest.

The work done to it did not increase value in any way, it decreased it, and no matter how well that work was done, the pistol is neither a collector piece nor a practical shooter.

You may get responses here saying "I've put a BUNCH of rounds through my 1918 & no problems", you may also get responses saying "I shot mine & cracked the slide".

My 1918 does not get fired.
I won't risk it.
Others make their own choices.

It'd be up to you to decide how high you'd be willing to go, but don't fall for a high price from anybody based on exaggerated value claims along the lines of either "But it's a COLLECTOR PIECE!" or "But it's a CUSTOM GUN!"

It's a de-valued gun.
You'd need to decide how valuable a good reminder of your friend is to you.
Denis

 

[agtman]

I have a Colt 1911, made in late 1917. It was shipped to France where it was lost by the Doughboy to whom it was issued and then recovered later by another Doughboy. All parts are original and the pistol still retains some decent amount of original finish.

There is obvious wear (scratches, nicks & dings) from both the war and over the many years afterwards. No attempt was ever made to refinish or "restore" it.

Long story behind this gun and how it came to me, but a collector specializing in WWI 1911s looked it over and valued it at "about $2500." That was 4-years ago.

Don't know if that helps the discussion here, but hey, ... it's just what I know.

 

[1911Tuner]

figure if it
was a M1911 it would have a parkeried original finish.

Parkerizing wasn't used until late '42 or early '43. The WW1 pistols were blued. The 1918s weren't highly polished and fire blued like the earlier ones, resulting in a dull blue-black finish...hence the term "Black Army Colt."

Dennis nailed it. Those slides are soft. Not a good prospect for a shooter beyond a few rounds to verify function.

 

[tark]

Were those slides too SOFT or too HARD? Soft usually doesn't crack, it peens and deforms and work hardens. Too hard cracks. I have read that during the wars they spot hardened the slides in the lug area and lest the rest soft, to speed up production. Is this where they were cracking? It would make sense. My JEDI powers tell me that Tuner will answer my question. He has set me straight in the past....

 

[DPris]

Heat treating as we know it began in the 1920s on those 1911 patterns, starting with spot hardening & progressing to "full" hardening.

As said- the 1918 slides & frames were SOFT, not heat treated.
Denis

 

[1911Tuner]

Were those slides too SOFT or too HARD?

Soft.

They suffered peening and deformation of the lugs and the breechface...and they crack from tensile stresses...most often in the top left side of the port about 1/8th inch from the corner. They also stretched, and along with lug deformation, contributed to increased headspace...sometimes beyond NO-GO allowance.

I've cracked several GI slides in that same spot. If you find that crack...even a tiny one...the slide is a paperweight. Don't fire the gun under any circumstances. Likewise if the rear lug faces have a stair-step appearance...go ahead and count on excessive headspace...especially if the front faces on the barrel upper lugs are likewise deformed. It's not repairable.

Colt didn't start fully heat treating slides until mid-1946. Spot-hardened WW2 slides are easy to spot. The finish is darker where they're hardened at the slidestop notch and the front for the first inch or so.

In 1936, Colt implemented a hardened steel insert in the breechface...called the "Recoil Shield" to address peening of the breechface from recoil. All WW2 contractors used the insert. It can be seen on a clean slide, and is often mistaken for a tool mark.

 

[StrawHat]

I have learned a lot about 1911s in general (specific to the year 1918) from this post.

Thank you and keep it coming!

 

[tark]

Thanks Tuner! My education continues..... I may have worked for Les Baer for 21 years, but all I ever did there is Checker front straps and fit slides to frames and fit small parts. I am ignorant of the actual mechanics and physics involved in the operation of the thing.

Never too old to learn. Thanks again

 

[Onmilo]

Just throwing this in the pot.

This is an X Number Arsenal refinished/rebuilt 1911
X number guns are weapons that had, for whatever reason, the serial number obliterated.
The guns were reworked/rebuilt at arsenal level and were then restamped with a new serial number which included an X as a prefex of suffix to the renumber.
During the rebuild/refinish process upgrades were incorporated to the guns including flame hardening areas of the frames and slides and upgrading parts.
This didn't just happen with renumbers but any 1911 pistols remaining in service that came through for rebuild.

I know collectors get all fuzzy and weak kneed about originality but when it comes to Military weapons, rebuilds are ALWAYS the best way to go if you want a real shooter.
And isn't shooting what guns are really made for?

 

[Jim K]

One interesting note on "X" number guns is that they were often recovered crime guns. When police or federal agents recovered M1911/A1 pistols, they were supposed to be turned over to the Army as (presumably) stolen from the government. (I don't know if serial numbers were checked for pistols sold by the Army and legally owned by someone.) Anyway, if/when such guns were returned, they were turned over to an arsenal for rebuild if necessary, and then put in the normal supply system. Often, like other crime guns, the serial numbers had been removed or obliterated, so they were given the "X" marking and a number from a series of numbers assigned to that arsenal.

Jim

 

[Onmilo]

Funny thing about that X number gun Jim.
The Marine that carried it all over the Pacific & survived that little brew ha ha somehow "Allowed" it to come home with him,,,
Technically, it may have been stolen twice.