1st bp-revolver

[Luomu]

Oops,

it's been a couple of years since I last visited THR. Nevermind, after ~25 years of shooting smokeless, I have finally given in to the lure of the dark side. I recently ordered a Uberti '61 Navy, cal .36, with steel gripframe and triggerguard. However, since the importer had none on the shelf, they are just starting to make the guns for his semi-annual order in Italy now. It will be maybe 3 months wait till I'll get my gun.

This gives me time, and I try to use it to gain information, which happily is available here aplenty.
A coupla questions came to mind:

What would be the absolute (yet safe) max load of FFF Swiss black powder in 1861 Navy? Or is it even possible to overstress the gun with FFF? I have no need to do kamikaze-loads, but it may be possible to adjust point of impact lower by increasing muzzle velocity.

What can I expect as service life on this gun? I understand that some of you have shot several thousands of rounds through a single revolver without major problems? I know revolvers generally need to be treated more gently than military autoloaders, so you can assume the gun will not be abused. It will, however, be shot and not just kept in the safe.

Any info will be appreciated.


-Luomu

Ps. For some unfathomable reason, a friend of mine is in process of getting himself a copy of a 1858 Remington..

 

[barman]

What would be the absolute (yet safe) max load of FFF Swiss black powder in 1861 Navy? Or is it even possible to overstress the gun with FFF? I have no need to do kamikaze-loads, but it may be possible to adjust point of impact lower by increasing muzzle velocity.

What can I expect as service life on this gun? I understand that some of you have shot several thousands of rounds through a single revolver without major problems? I know revolvers generally need to be treated more gently than military autoloaders, so you can assume the gun will not be abused.

Congrats! First let me say I believe the 1861 navy is a beautiful gun.

You basically can't overload a percussion cap revolver, as long as you use ONLY blackpowder in it. The abolute max charge will be what you can manage to fit in the chambers. The revolver won't blow up, but that may wear it a little faster than when loaded with modest charges.

Regarding what you can expect about service life, it will last for decades if taken care of properly (a good thorough and complete cleaning is compulsory. Maybe not after each shooting session, but at least you need to keep the bore and chambers clean of any powder residue if you don't want any rust to appear).
However, what will wear out very fast and will definitely need replacement are mechanical parts like, in order:
-the hand (first part to wear, it causes cylinder play)
-the hand spring
-the bolt
-the trigger spring.

They are made of much softer steel than the rest of the gun. I sometimes wonder if these Italian companies don't do that on purpose...

 

[mykeal]

Welcome to the sport.

barman hit the nail on the head, so I'll just expand a little.

As he said, the gun will safely shoot as much (black, not smokeless!) powder as you can cram in the chamber and still get a ball in also. And, if it's a steel frame, it'll do so repeatedly. A brass frame will eventually stretch out of dimension if treated that way.

However, it will not accurately shoot that kind of load. Black powder revolvers all shoot most accurately when charged with moderate loads. In the case of your 1861 Colt Navy, I would start with 25 gr fffg and shoot about a hundred or so rounds to get the action and barrel working together properly, and to get yourself used to the trigger and the gun. When you feel you are familiar with it and have good trigger management, do some load development.

Start with 15 gr fffg, shoot a 3 or 5 shot group at 25 meters using the same point of aim for every shot. It's not important where the group is on the target; the size of the group is what matters. Then, clean the barrel, load with 20 gr fffg and shoot another group on a new target. Then do 25 gr, 30 gr, etc. This will tell you what load your gun likes most for accuracy.

It's important when doing the above that you use the same measure and load in exactly the same manner each time. That is, if you tap the measure to settle the powder before loading, do that same tapping every time. Use the same technique in seating the ball and compressing the load each time. There are many factors that influence how the load burns, thus affecting accuracy, and you need to be sure to eliminate, or at least mitigate, those effects during load development. You want the only variance between groups to be the amount of powder loaded.

 

[bender]

...but it may be possible to adjust point of impact lower by increasing muzzle velocity.

is this true?
My first BP revolver is on lay-a-way, so I was just wondering... since I'm also new to the sport.

 

[mykeal]

Yes, it's true. However, with a bp gun increasing velocity by increasing the powder load quickly becomes ineffective.

BP burns much slower than smokeless. So much so that in many cases some significant percentage of the charge is actually burned OUTSIDE the barrel. This is the main reason increasing charges actually start to create larger groups at some point - the burn is inconsistent when you start expelling powder from the chamber instead of burning it.

One may be able to lower the point of impact relative to the point of aim by increasing the powder charge (and thus velocity) up to a point, but at some point that's going to be ineffective.

With black powder, you really need to develop a load that produces the smallest groups and deal with POA/POI problems with sight picture or sight adjustments.

 

[Roswell 1847]

BP burns much slower than smokeless

Not always true, though faster burning smokeless pistol powders generally do.

The impulse of black powder loads takes place closer to the breech of BP shotshells. Which is why the BP double shotguns had thinner barrel walls midway of the barrel than at the muzzle.

BP burning times are most effected by grain size. while smokeless burning times are affected by coatings, formulations and grain shape as well as size.

BP is still a class A explosive rather than a Propellent.

If you use FFG or larger some powder may burn outside the bore of a pistol, its more suited to rifles or the large chambers of the Walker and Dragoon, FFFG is better for pistols because it burns faster. I've used FFFFg priming powder as well in the .36 but I wouldn't recommend it

 

[Luomu]

Thank you, gentlemen, for the excellent information and rapid response.

I was also wondering; can I substitute some Colt SAA parts into the Navy, and if so, which parts? Not that there are too many parts to begin with..

I mean I had a Colt Cowboy and a Uberti Cattleman a few years ago, and installing a Heinie trigger & bolt spring immediately improved the action on the Cattleman. Could I put the same spring on the Navy? The other parts that come to mind are grips and mainspring, are they interchangeable? Of course, grips often need fitting anyway.

I had the chance to examine several Colt type revolvers personally owned by a gun shop staff member before choosing one for myself. These were:
-1861 Navy (Colt blackpowder arms)
-1860 Army (Uberti)
-1848 Dragoon (Uberti)
-1849 Pocket (real thing, from 1850's)
-Root sidehammer (also genuine Colt)

The Navy was simply the best one for my smallish hand. And like Barman said, it is beautiful. Allthough, all Colts are nice.

 

[mykeal]

In general, the action parts, grips and mainspring will interchange between the 1851, 1860, 1861 and 1873 Colt single action revolvers from the same manufacturer. That is, Uberti parts will fit Uberti guns, Pietta parts will fit Pietta guns, etc. Go to the VTI Gun Parts site and review the parts listing - they tell you what parts fit on what guns. For example, here's the page for the 1851 Navy by Uberti:
https://www.vtigunparts.com/ab22400...roducts.asp?id=75&cat=Uberti+1851+Navy+.36cal
Scroll down to the parts listing and notice that part no. 20, the mainspring, is listed as fitting the 1851, 1860, 1861 and 1872SA Uberti revolvers.

And yes, the Heinie parts will also fit on, and improve, the Uberti 1851 Navy like they did on the Cattleman (1873 SAA).

 

[Luomu]

Thanks, mykeal. I was browsing Brownells, but this VTI company has more extensive parts line for Uberti.

I'll be ordering hand assembly, bolt and trigger & bolt spring as spares, even tough I won't get my gun until maybe next february.

 

[.44walkersabot]

Blackpowder only burns at one speed--very very fast. Same with the blackpowder subs. Smokeless pistol powder burns much faster as a general rule than smokeless long gun powder. Smokeless pistol powder accidentally loaded into a rifle round can cause serious damage...Okay...

 

[Pulp]

There is a problem with installing lighter hammer springs on C&B revolvers. That is inconsistant cap ignition and when you do get ignition the pressure will blow the hammer back and allow the cap to fall into the inner workings of the revolver. I tried it with my '60 Army and quickly went back to the original heavy hammer spring.

Edit: The good news is, it's a very easy job to swap springs, so don't be afraid to try it. If you don't like it you can always swap them back.

 

[Luomu]

Pulp, I do not intend to lighten hammer- or mainspring in any way. Never have done that in any of the revolvers that I've owned. Only the trigger & bolt spring may get changed for a wire type. Reliability comes first.

 

[Luomu]

All right, italians could not manufacture my gun in time. The 6 months time limit on my gun permit was about to expire, so I opted to get an 1851 Navy instead, as these could be supplied. Nevermind, '51 is a beautiful revolver too.

Overall quality is just fine. Trigger is very light. I have had the pistol out at the range twice now. Accuracy has been rather modest. But I've only tried 18 and 24 grain loads so far. After firing a few cylinders, there were some misfires on both days. I am yet unsure whether this is due to too light mainspring, or has there been some crud and/or primer particles in the action. More shooting will follow when time permits.

(sorry about the photo quality, it's a cell phone camera only)

 

[scrat]

Congrats the 1851 is a natural born shooter. Very easy to shoot. it does shoot a little high. However that just depends on how far your shooting it. Sometimes its not about how much powder you put in the gun that will make it accurate. youre developing a load the gun will like. you have try different grain loads. Same time on misfires hang ups. i have found more than once that a spent cap fell into the works of the gun. Meaning you would have to remove the backstrap, grip, main spring then trigger guard. Then if there is a cap in the works you will see it and will be able to take it out. Inspect your caps to make sure they fit ok. some take #10 and some will take #11.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Listen to your friend

Listen to your friend...Colts are pretty, but even Colt put a top strap on their 1873 SAA Gun that one the West. Should get an 1858 Rem and see what you were missing all them years.(jus' funnin with you)But it's the truth. Been shootin BP C&B 30 years. I like Colts but I'm a REM man.

 

[Luomu]

Well, I've shot my friend's Remington a bit. It's all right. And in a perfect world I would get one or two of those, too. Maybe someday I will.

But Colt revolvers have that something that just seems right to me. I really like that open top style. And Navy models simply fit and handle best for me.

I read somewhere, that during the US Civil War Colt guns had a slight edge over Remingtons in that they would function longer, before powder residue started to cause reliability problems. Of course, in a typical cavalry engagement, a trooper propably did not get to load his revolver too many times (or at all) so this point, even if true, may not be that relevant. Would some of you over there care to comment on this?

 

[mykeal]

Cavalry tactics did not include reloading. The cavalry was, of course, a very mobile and quick reacting force. Their only mode of operation was attack, the main weapon being rapid mobility. The theory in equipping the troopers, often not executed due to equipment shortages, was a rifle for long distance (100 yards and up), then charge with pistols (each was to be equipped with two carried in saddle holsters) between 100 and 25 yards, then go to sabres for hand-to-hand. Of course, every unit varied this based on manpower and equipment available. But the cavalry's purpose, from the very beginning to modern warfare, has been it's ability to move and attack quickly rather than apply superior firepower.

Remingtons were not cavalry issue as much as they were officer's sidearms, along with the smaller frame Colts. The cavalry trooper's pistols were supposed to be Walkers, then Dragoons, but of course, any pistol would do the job. This was a time of fairly rapidly changing firearm design, so there really was no single all-time favorite for every scenario. Each design was in favor for at least some period of time, and there were many different requirements. Officers vs enlisted, cavalry vs infantry vs artillery vs logistics support - all had different needs with different solutions.

By the way, Remington fans often claim the gun was stronger due to the top strap, and say that it's obviously better because Colt went to one on the 1873 design. They forget, of course, that the much, much larger base pin on the open top Colt carries the loads quite adequately. Colt went to the top strap only to satisfy that very complaint by Army procurement officials who, like their contemporary counterparts, lacked adequate understanding of some very basic engineering principles.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

They forget, of course, that the much, much larger base pin on the open top Colt carries the loads quite adequately

LoL! Until that tiny little locking pin in the rear of the Colt frame breaks weld and or pin... Even happens to Dragoons. Not a very strong reBUTTle)

 

[Rachen]

"I Smoke Black Powder" "And Favor 1858 New Army Remington"

Is that the only brand of smokes that come 6 in a pack?

LOL

Hey Smokin Gun, it's been a long time since you posted here! I am mostly here now, since Voy is banned from my workplaces hotspot for some reason, and THR works, sometimes.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Hey Pard

Hi Ya Rachen, Haven't posted here in a while you are right. Had my 6 packs elsewhere and was busy at work myself...Edwards AFB.
Good to see ya.
SG

 

[Mike OTDP]

The major advantage of the Remington design is that the barrel and frame are held firmly together. A minor advantage is that the sights are better. An unappreciated advantage is that the trigger is wider...important in competition.

 

[Bayou Runner]

Dark Side?

Seems to me that us BP Shooters are in the "light of day".....after the smoke clears, that is.
Started long time ago with the open top "1861 Navy 44". went to the 58 Remmie 44, and I'm back an have been for a while with 1860 Armies. For me, the 1860 Army is everything the 1858 New Model Army isn't. Geaux make some smoke!

 

[Smokin_Gun]

I sure do agree with that remark and could add to it Bayou Runner, but I won't mon amie. I like the 1860 Army too.

SG

 

[Luomu]

Thank you for your comment Mykeal. Military history is allways interesting. As I understand, cavalry charges were supposed to be over before any reloading was necessary, theory tested even as late as at the Little Big Horn... Then again, far out in the west, US cavalry often had to operate alone without the support of artillery and infantry?

 

[mykeal]

Cavalry operated alone (ie, without infantry and artillery) on purpose from the day it was first conceived (circa 1400?) until the politicians realized that such a powerful military force could turn against them with very short notice (circa 1900). One of the South's only advantages was the way the Rebel generals allowed their cavalry free reign both behind and in front of enemy lines. Sometimes, however, the cavalry failed to deliver on their promise, such as Gettysburg.