1st Remington 700 (short action .308) - what were they thinking?

[Newtosavage]

The average hunter could care less about the throat, where it is, or how it relates to their ammo. If ammo shoots well for them and kills stuff dead right there, they are happy.

And besides, from a factory (lawyer) standpoint, a long throat keeps pressures down when careless reloaders get carried away with charge weights.

You're the 2nd one to mention lawyers, and I suspect that's the real reason. I was just surprised to find this combination in a gun that has a reputation for customization by bench shooters, but perhaps this is one reason why so much customization.

 

[Hanzo581]

That it is a light hunting rifle and people will buy factory ammo or just load to fit the mag.

I was going to say they were probably thinking 99% of shooters don't hand load.

 

[Nature Boy]

I was going to say they were probably thinking 99% of shooters don't hand load.

What % do? I'd be curious to know that stat, if it exists

 

[Hanzo581]

What % do? I'd be curious to know that stat, of it exists

I just pulled that number out of my rear end, I only have anecdotal evidence to back up that number. I know a lot of shooters but very few reloaders/handloaders. It might not be a niche practice, but when you put that number against the total number of gun owners, it can't be that high.

 

[Nature Boy]

I just pulled that number out of my rear end, I only have anecdotal evidence to back up that number. I know a lot of shooters but very few reloaders/handloaders. It might not be a niche practice, but when you put that number against the total number of gun owners, it can't be that high.

I agree. Very "nichey". Do you ever think, "man, look at all the fun those other guys or missing" or do you think, "man, I long for the days when ignorance was bliss and one rifle, one shot gun and one pistol with a few boxes of shells was enough"?

I had a box of 358 Winchester that lasted me 5 years. Now that I load for it, that wouldn't last 10 minutes

 

[ants]

Hello, Newtosavage. Interesting situation.

First, my Rem 700 rifles (3 of them) don't have your problem.
Your posts seem to suggest that ALL these Rem 700 rifles are bad.
Maybe it's just yours. Mine don't have the problem you describe.
Maybe you got a bad one. Take it back if it's bad.

Second, the SPS series is not Remington's top-of-the-line accuracy rifle. It's made of ordinary components.
The stock is just a Hogue synthetic, trigger group is their regular X-mark, with a standard Remington barrel.
It's a low-cost off-the-shelf special. You got a good deal for a run of the mill rifle.

Is the problem poor accuracy? Or you haven't shot it yet? Maybe its a tack driver.
Or maybe a 30 caliber shotgun. You need to shoot it to see.

If it shoots poorly at mag length, get the barrel set back. My gunsmith charges $90.
You mentioned rebarrel to 7.62x39. If you are willing to go that far perhaps
you don't realize that it's cheaper to set the barrel back and solve your problem.

But until you shoot it, you don't know if you have a problem or not.
I hope you don't have a problem! I hope it's a good one. Shoot it and see.

 

[rayatphonix]

I had a Remington SPS in 308 also. I had the same issues. I reload and struggled to find a load that would shoot under 1 to 1 /2". I startered seating the bullets .02" off the lands and it was like a different gun. It shoot under 1/2" 5 shot groups. Problem was I had to single load from the top.

I sold it and never looked back. It's not logical, but I doubt I'll ever buy another Remy as it left a bad taste on my mouth.

 

[rayatphonix]

Just read my post. I meant to say it wouldn't shoot under 1" to 1 1/2" groups.

 

[LoonWulf]

The long throats are pretty normal, sometimes they are ok sometimes not, this time seems like a not. Remingtons not the only one guilty of this, its fairly standard practice. My savage 11 .243 almost ran out of box space before i got berger 95s to shoot decently. My 7mm a bolt i had to mod the mag to get the coal i wanted.
And yes sometimes It does mater depending on what bullet your shooting, some bullets, like standard interlocks or prohunters, tend to shoot well no mater where they are. This is as long as the chambers straight, and the throats not way over sized. (remington has had issues with that)

There are a couple tricks that sometimes work. heavy blunt bullets will sometimes shoot better than short pointy ones, and often the less "aggressive" designs shoot better.

Honestly I much prefer the .300 savage family of cartridges in the remington short, and 7 actions. Savage is a good length for standard short action cartridges, but STILL to short of the .284, x57 and x55 length cartridges to be completely comfortable.

If it were my rifle, I would probably pull the barrel and replace it with something else like the 6-6.5CM. Or if sticking with .308 fam, a barrel properly throated for 2.8" cartridges.

 

[Newtosavage]

First, my Rem 700 rifles (3 of them) don't have your problem.
Your posts seem to suggest that ALL these Rem 700 rifles are bad.
Maybe it's just yours.

First of all, thanks for the unsolicited lecture. Second, thanks for making it sound as though I just bought the Dodge Caravan of rifles... "It's made of ordinary components...It's a low-cost off-the-shelf special....a good deal for a run of the mill rifle." ha, ha, ha. And third, you really think they might have made just one gun like this? LOL.

No, it's not a huge problem. If you read my OP, you would see where I said "it's probably not a huge issue" and went on to ask "what is the logic behind the long throat and short mag. well? Anyone know?"

So as usual, I'm seeking information because I like to learn. If you don't have an answer, then it's okay to say "I have no idea."

 

[Newtosavage]

LoonWulf, sorry to give the impression that I felt this was a huge problem. Rather, it just seems illogical to me. The gun shoots fine loaded to mag length. In fact, I shot a 4-round group at 300 yards this evening that measured 2.7" across, even with jamming the 180-grain Accubonds into a compressed load of Varget.

However, as Rayatphonix points out, this arrangement will present an issue for some shooters. And from what little I know about creating accurate handloads, it goes against the popular convention of seating bullets near the lands. So it's a curiosity.

 

[LoonWulf]

Ahhhh, seems i got a couple posts mixed up in my head. I thought you had already run ammo thru the gun and had it perform poorly.

Anyway, glad yours is one of the ones that does ok with a decent jump.

 

[Newtosavage]

Seems to be so far. Didn't care for my "stock .308 load" which is 165 SST/IB's over 44 grains of Varget, but when I ran that load up to max of 46 grains, it started to shine. Thankfully, the cannelure placement on the SST's is near-perfect for the OAL I need for the short Remington box. I really would prefer not having so much of the 180 Accubonds down in the case, but it doesn't seem to matter to the gun, giving me sub-MOA groups at 300 yards.

I just know that some guys that insist on seating near the lands would be very frustrated by this rifle.

 

[Offfhand]

Difference in weight between a long BDL and a short BDL is 4 ounces. And 1/8" of length.

I expect that what the poster meant to say is that the difference in length between long and short 700's is 7/8" not 1/8" see attached photo of both for obvious differences

 

[someguy2800]

My advice would be to load it to just below max mag length and forget about it. I have several rifles that have throats so long that the bullet is out of the case before the ogive contacts the rifling and they still shoot well. I have tested some of my guns seating bullets from .200" off the lands all the way up to jamming the lands by .010" and I've never seen any real accuracy improvement by loading to the lands. Not saying it doesn't make a difference for some rifle and bullet combinations but it made no improvement in any of mine. Most likely because I rarely ever shoot VLD type secant ogive bullets. If I wanted to load to the lands in my Tikka 25-06 I would have to adjust the seating die every 20 rounds. That one is .100" longer than when it started life and still shoots the lights out.

 

[spitballer]

I just know that some guys that insist on seating near the lands would be very frustrated by this rifle.

I see your point and it's a good one: long skinny bullets (think Berger) never did fit into my short action magazine either, when seated against the lands. When I got barreled at Pac-Nor I specified that I wanted the lands as close as possible (with the understanding that I would not be using hard, FMJ-style bullets) and with the closer lands I'm able to seat shorter, but I still don't think it's enough to fit the skinniest bullets in the magazine and I wouldn't hunt without the magazine.

 

[Newtosavage]

My advice would be to load it to just below max mag length and forget about it.

Precisely what I did yesterday, and I was satisfied with the results. Plenty good for a hunting rifle.

Most likely because I rarely ever shoot VLD type secant ogive bullets.

Interesting observation, which may be part of the reason why this Rem 700 likes the 180 Accubonds a tad bit more than the 165 SST's. With my Savage, the reverse is true.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I've actually got 4 Remington's that have "short" throats.
3-Model 7's, (.223,.260, 7mm-08,) and a .22-250 M700.

The .223 "touches" the lands with a Hornady 60gr Spt at 2.275", mag allows 2.5" plus. .260 and 7mm08 touch at 2.830-2.835", mags allow 2.835" oal.
The M700 "wants" a Sierra 50-63gr bullet at 2.350" though mags allow 2.8"+.

Most accurate is "touching" lands, except for .22-250. It wants bullets to jump.
Go figure.
But, it's the most accurate rifle I've ever owned. An "ADL" with "Sporter weight/taper barrel" at that...?.. .3's with Sierra FB-Spt. 5-shots...

 

[Newtosavage]

It is interesting. This 700 - despite being an "ordinary low-cost off-the-shelf run of the mill rifle" - managed two groups today at 200 yards of just 1.04 and 1.05" with 125 Nosler ballistic tips over RL-7. That's right, 0.5 MOA. No bedding, no pillars, cheap "Hogue" plastic stock and a worthless X-mark trigger (that I have to admit is pretty worthless, all kidding aside).

If it keeps this up, I might just be able to overlook the short mag box and long throat enough to keep it. ha, ha.

 

[Walkalong]

If it keeps this up, I might just be able to overlook the short mag box and long throat enough to keep it. ha, ha.

I should think so.

 

[LoonWulf]

It is interesting. This 700 - despite being an "ordinary low-cost off-the-shelf run of the mill rifle" - managed two groups today at 200 yards of just 1.04 and 1.05" with 125 Nosler ballistic tips over RL-7. That's right, 0.5 MOA. No bedding, no pillars, cheap "Hogue" plastic stock and a worthless X-mark trigger (that I have to admit is pretty worthless, all kidding aside).

If it keeps this up, I might just be able to overlook the short mag box and long throat enough to keep it. ha, ha.

View attachment 236870

Ive actually had decent luck with the two xmark pro triggers ive got. They took a good cleaning and some fiddling, but both cleaned up nicely.
They are set right at 3lbs on trigger pull scale, and break nice and cleanly.

Is it an actual hogue stock? Cause those do have pillars, even the plain plastic one that came on my Howa Lightning was pillared. As long as the forend dosent touch the barrel ive found hogue stock fairly consistent.... Absolutely cannot stand the feel of them tho.

 

[eastbank]

remington sps left hand 7mm08 120gr nosler-BT with a healthy load of varget, plain stock with a 2.5X 8 leupold scope. first target at 200 yards from a lead sled, first shot from a cold-clean barrel, second shot from a cold dirty barrel. second picture was a shot at a beer can lid(aiming at the center) at 90 yards shooting the shot after a day of hunting in a steady rain and useing the hood of a truck and a coat as a rest. it may be a plain jane rifle with all the wart,s that come with them, but its not going anywhere but hunting. eastbank.

 

[Newtosavage]

LoonWulf, I don't think it's a Hogue stock. It's a plastic Remington stock with a flimsy forend, but it does have nice rubberized inserts that make it easier to grip, and a Limbsaver recoil pad that says "Remington" on it. Plus it is light - 27 oz. on my scale - about the same as my Savage "tupperware" stocks. (and they seem to get the job done just fine for me as well). I was curious how well it would shoot without pillars or bedding, but it looks like it will shoot just fine.

I will look at that trigger some more. Lowest I could get it was 4 lbs. 10 oz.

 

[Newtosavage]

Finally broke down and adjusted that X-mark trigger - the RIGHT way. The "trigger adjustment screw" on the trigger itself is completely worthless. No doubt to satisfy Remington's attorneys. The REAL trigger adjustment screw is inside, and with less than 30 sec. worth of work, the trigger is now a consistent 3 lbs. and very nice. I look forward to the next trip to the range with the newly adjusted trigger. Trying to stay on hold with that 5 lb. trigger was a chore! ha, ha.