Not really. Besides, you are missing the point. The point is not to brag about what "I" can do with iron sights. The point is that you do not need a huge scope to shoot to, or near a rifle's potential. Fact is, like I said, many shooters have no experience with iron sights, much less a good aperture and falsely believe that they need a high magnification scope (yes, 3-9x included) to shoot deer at 150yds or 1" groups at 100yds.
I understand good groups can be had with iron sights, but they typically aren't done with factory notch and post sights and stating that any decent shooter should be able to hold 1 MOA with irons first requires good sights, which often are more expensive than a good scope.
Who said it was easy??? There's nothing "easy" about it. Joe Blow ain't gonna decide he wants to start shooting Sunday, buy a rifle Monday and shoot MOA with irons on Tuesday. Which is why I said, a "decent rifleman". Not "Joe Blow" redneck that shows up to the range with a cooler full of beer, a cardboard box for a rest and a box of shells.
I don't see that person shooting 1 MOA with a 3x9 either.
Any discussion of the accuracy potential of "a rifle" should be from the bench. I could care less what YOU are capable of from varying positions. I want to know what the rifle is capable of.
A bit contradictory here don't you think? If you only care what the rifle is capable of, you would use a target scope. We also have different definitions of "rifleman". To me, a rifleman shoots from field positions, not off a bench. Not to discredit shooting from a bench, as I do enjoy it.
Obviously, we may assume that the rifle is capable of MOA or better. Sometimes we know, sometimes we don't. We don't go putting a scope mount on a Winchester 1895 just to see. We just know from experience that "we" can shoot nearly as accurately with iron sights as we can with a scope of modest magnification. We also know that our ability to do so it not dependent upon seeing a 1" target at 100yds.
Never said it was dependent on seeing 1". Having shot both service rifle type matches with a Garand and an AR as well as shooting position smallbore shoots it is clear that group size can be worlds smaller than you can see with the proper target/sights.
Typically receiver or tang sights of the Williams Foolproof, Lyman, Marbles or AR variety. Though it happens with factory buckhorns as well.
I would love to see 5 consecutive groups with the factory buckhorns. That kind of accuracy is quite a skill, not something a decent rifleman can do as much as a very good rifleman.
Obviously as little as possible.
The point here was that many people claim how great this or that shoots but fail to state that they only get groups like that in perfect conditions. While it doesn't directly relate to the ability of the sights, it certainly pertains to the claim that a decent rifleman should be able to shoot 1 MOA regardless of sights.
What difference does that make?
A big difference. Again, not a direct issue of sights, but certainly a huge component of the claim of 1MOA. The point was/is that there are many variables to shoot 1MOA. and isn't something a decent rifleman can just do on his own.
This is all irrelevant. If the rifle is not capable, then obviously the shooter won't be, regardless of sighting equipment. That was not the point.
But it is relevant to the guy shooting the gun he owns. It is irrelevant to say what other equipment can do if it isn't what he is using.
It is immaterial. If a sporting rifle is capable of MOA accuracy, then a good shooter can reach that potential with a good set of iron sights. If this is a foreign concept to you, you probably have little or no experience with a good set of peeps.
We are back to the idea that the rifle bought is what is being used. I have seen many rifles do some quite amazing things with iron sights. Most of them also cost as much as many automobiles. A good set of irons will run well more than many hunting rifles. You can assume all you like about what I have and haven't shot/seen. I do own a couple smallbore iron sight rifles for position shooting as well as rifles for service rifle matches. Seeing some of the high power guys shoot and well, it takes more than a decent shooter to consistently get those 1 MOA groups. If you could shoot consistent 1MOA groups you would clean house in most all of these events.
But if it makes you feel any better, the rifle I had in mind when I wrote that response is a late model Winchester 1895 .405WCF equipped with factory buckhorns. Shooting factory Hornady 300gr JSP's and benchrested. The Hornady bullet is garbage on game but my handloads with the Woodleigh 300gr and H4895 have approached their accuracy.
Again, I'd love to see 5 consecutive groups with that combo. It is a skill beyond the decent rifleman to keep them that tight.
Also, lets not forget that many of the better iron sight groups shot are done so at a target designed to work at best with the sights used. This rifle in question is to be a hunting rifle. Matching a front insert to the target black size isn't very helpful to shooting a deer shaped animal. I haven't seen many circle shaped deer of late. Not to say that you still aren't within hunting accuracy (depending on distance), just that many of the better iron sights aren't shooting these results in the field.
