2 Break-Top Revolvers

[Dudemeister]

I just bought 2 S&W break-top copies.

The first one is a Spanish made model in .38 S&W. The finish is excellent condition, the bore is nice, bright and clean, and with the exception of a few light carbon deposits in the cylinder, one might even argue the gun was unfired.

The cylinder locks up pretty good. Not rock tight, there is a little play, but it's minimal. The only weird thing is that the cylinder only locks up when the hammer is pulled back, the rest of the time it can spin freely. I've heard that on some of these revolvers that is normal.

The gun is marked SPAIN in the left side of the frame, and it has a serial number and a trademark on the grip frame butt.

Does anyone recognize the trademark? Additionally, I would assume the gun was made for BP, and will probably not be safe to shoot with smokless.

 

[Dudemeister]

2 Break Tops Continued:

Next up, is a small frame Hammerless H&R in .32 S&W, 5 shot. Based on the information I can find around, this is a 1st model Hammerless, made between 1899 and 1904, and based on the very low S/N (1336), it was probably made in 1899. So this was most definitely made for black powder.

This gun is almost like the Spanish one, in that it's in excellent condition. The lands and grooves are literally untouched. The cylinder chambers show no carbon buildup or anything. I believe this gun may be unfired. The grips are in excellent condition, with sharp checkering, but there are a few blemishes on the finish, especially on the cylinder which shows marks of having been cycled repeatedly. I wonder if this was someone's toy gun, which they just dry fired and played with without actually shooting it.

But then there's the finish. For a 110+ year old gun, the finish is simply too good to be true. Is there a way to tell if it was refinished?

Anyway, since I'm in CA, I now have to wait for my guns. In fact, since I don't yet have a COE, I have to wait for 10 days for the H&R, then wait another month for the the other.

Can anyone knowledgeable on these revolvers chime in on these?

Thanks

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The first gun is not a copy of anything S&W ever made. It is exactly what you said, a Spanish Top Break revolver, very loosely based on what S&W was making at the time. There were lots and lots of these made. Some of them, particularly guns made in Belgium, were outright forgeries, going so far as to mark the guns Smith and Wesson, or using names like Schofield on them. Yours is not that blatant.

Look at the shape of the cylinder locking grooves on this gun. Notice there is only a straight, hard edge at one end? That is because the bolt only stops against one side of the slot. The hand is what keeps the cylinder from backing up when the hammer is at full cock. That is why the cylinder will spin freely except when the hammer is cocked. Not the strongest design, common on less expensive revolvers.

Regarding the other one; do you really think a gun 110 years old was only played with but never fired? The cylinder shows plenty of wear from having been cycled many times, but that is no indication that it has not been fired. Can't really tell from your photos if the gun has been refinished or not. Certainly the cylinder has plenty of wear on the outside, if the gun was refinished that would have happened afterwards. Telltale signs of a refinish are blending of edges that should be sharp, lettering being partly polished away, and screw holes being dished out from over polishing. It is completely conceivable that this gun has not been refinished, but I kind of doubt that in 110 years nobody fired it. Look on the recoil shield for impressions of cartridge heads. Cartridges fired will slam backwards and eventually leave a circular halo around the firing pin. The bluing may disappear in that halo. A revolver that has been fired a lot will also have less obvious halos where loaded rounds slam back against the recoil shield after the gun stops moving in recoil.

 

[Dudemeister]

When I examined them at the shop, I only looked at the cylinder chambers and the bores, and my comments were based on those observations.

Right now, all I have is the pictures I took yesterday, but in 10 days, when I get the H&R out of jail, I'll post more pics and take a look at the tell-tale signs you mentioned.

 

[Kernel]

If you reload, or are interested in starting, Midway has .38 & .32 S&W brass in stock. The .38 S&W is a little different animal and requires a 0.360-0.361" bullet. The Missouri Bullet Company makes a lead one, otherwise they're kinda hard to find. Most .38's shoot a .357" bullet.

I would research the H&R a little more. I wouldn't necessarily assume it's BP only. Smokeless powder was readily available by 1899. It was the hot-new-thing which drove gun sales, so all gun manufactures were quick to update their designs for it.

 

[Dudemeister]

If you reload, or are interested in starting, Midway has .38 & .32 S&W brass in stock. The .38 S&W is a little different animal and requires a 0.360-0.361" bullet. The Missouri Bullet Company makes a lead one, otherwise they're kinda hard to find. Most .38's shoot a .357" bullet.

I would research the H&R a little more. I wouldn't necessarily assume it's BP only. Smokeless powder was readily available by 1899. It was the hot-new-thing which drove gun sales, so all gun manufactures were quick to update their designs for it.

From all the information I can find on H&R revolvers, if the left side of teh barrel has the caliber stamped on it, then the gun was made for smokeless, if there's nothing on the side of the barrel it's definitely black powder

I just ordered some brass from Cabela's, and I'm in the processes of looking for the dies I'll be needing. I already downloaded the SAAMI specs for these cartridges, and will be looking for bullets next.

I just checked with Midway, and they don't have anything except primed .38 S&W Brass. Everything else is out of stock and NOT backorderable.

 

[Kernel]

Okay. Sounds like you did your due diligence regarding H&R and BP.

Natchez has Starline .38 S&W brass in stock. Starline brass is some of the best you can get. I don't think they make .32 S&W (short) brass, though. Not sure where you'd get that. (I only have a .38 S&W). Natchez also has Lee carbide die sets for both calibers in stock.

One tip. If you get a case to store your loaded cartridges and fired brass, like a MTM 50 or 100 rd case, get the one for 9mm Luger. The size is perfect for the .38 S&W. If you get the case that also fits .38Spl &.357Mag (like what's recommended) the short little .38 S&W cartridges will fall out inside the case, roll around, and get all messed up. The 9mm case is the one you want, it's perfect.

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cf...&prodTitle=Starline UNP Brass 38 S&W - 100/PK

 

[Dudemeister]

Thanks for the tip on the boxes and Natchez.

I ended up cancelling most of my Cabela's order and getting the stuff from Natchez. They were cheaper on the dies and the brass.

The only thing I left on order with Cabela's is the 32 S&W Brass, simply because I could order it and they'll automatically send it when they get it (eta 8-10 weeks).

Now if somebody could identify those Spanish trademarks ...

 

[Dudemeister]

Look at the shape of the cylinder locking grooves on this gun. Notice there is only a straight, hard edge at one end? ... Not the strongest design, common on less expensive revolvers.

I started looking at various images on line to see who else used this type of design, or if it was unique to the Spanish copies, etc.

It turns out that many of the S&W copies used this design, almost all Iver Johnson designs use this type of notch, Hopkins & Allen used it as well, and so did Harrington & Richardson. The weird thing though, is that H&R's earlier designs had the small taper groove with the full drop in notch (like on the Hammerless one I posted), but later models (made after 1919) have the same design as the Spanish copy.

I wonder what prompted them to move from the full notch to this?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I wonder what prompted them to move from the full notch to this?

Cheaper to make.




You mentioned Iver Johnson. About the turn of the Century, Iver Johnson completely redesigned their line of revolvers for Smokeless Powder.

Here is one of the earlier BP revolvers.




Here is a Smokeless Iver Johnson.



There are three ways to tell a BP IJ from a Smokeless one. First off, look at the little owl on the grips. He faces forward on a BP gun, he faces backwards on a Smokeless one. Inside, the hammer spring of a BP IJ is a leaf spring, the Smokeless versions have a coil main spring. And lastly, the Smokeless version has the better, more precise and more expensive slot that captures the bolt with both straight edges.


Here is a European copy of a S&W.




These are the revolvers that it is imitating, a pair of 44 Double Actions, chambered for 44 Russian.



At first glance they look similar. But closer inspection reveals the differences. Besides the configuration of the cylinder locking slots, notice the shape of the trigger guards, the imitation has a crude trigger guard screwed in place. The Smith trigger guards, in addition to being much finer, are actually spring steel and lock in place inside the frame, rather than being screwed in place. Notice the different shapes of the triggers too. Overall, the Smith revolvers simply have much finer lines.

There were many European copies made of S&W revolvers, some of them outright forgeries, with the Smith and Wesson name stamped on them. I have seen fake Smiths with the name Schofield stamped right on them, even though they plainly were not Schofields. International law being what it was, there was little S&W could do about it. They did manage to get one Belgian company to stop making forgeries toward the end of the 1900s after years of effort.

 

[Dudemeister]

Are those 2 44 Smiths yours? They're beautiful. I'd love to find something like that.

 

[Kernel]

S&W's have side plates. A feature that adds cost. The Spanish copies do not (that I can see), nor do the less expensive American makes.

Dudemiester, if you find a company that makes an affordable 0.360" bullet, besides Missouri Bullet Co., let me know. BTW if you order from MBC you can get a 5% THR discount. Check out the Reloading page for details.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Are those 2 44 Smiths yours? They're beautiful. I'd love to find something like that.

Yes they are.


I use these .359 diameter bullets for reloading 38 S&W. Not .360 in diameter, but close enough. They are in stock at Midway.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046424229/hunters-supply-hard-cast-bullets-38-caliber-359-diameter-100-grain-lead-flat-nose?cm_vc=ProductFinding

 

[Kernel]

.359 diameter bullets

Missouri Bullet Company's .38 S&W bullet is 0.361". Perfect fit for the bore of my S&W 38 Double Action. Plus, they're affordable and MBC gives THR members an additional 5% discount.

 

[Dudemeister]

I used to get Bear Creek moly coated bullets from one of my local shops, which unfortunately closed last year (owner retired). I can't find almost anyone that carries these, and the couple that do, are out of stock on everything, so I think Bear Creek might out of business.

Mastercast has a good selection and decent prices, but you're right about Missouri Bullet. They have some of the best prices and with THR's discount it gets even better. I've used their .45LC and .45ACP before and had no complaints.

 

[stubbicatt]

Driftwood Johnson, on the two Smith and Wesson revolvers, on the cylinders, there appear to be 2 sets of circumferentially machined slots both for the locking bolt, and then another set on the cylinder in front of the locking bolt slots. What is the purpose of the secondary slots? Is it a double lock of sorts to keep the cylinder firmly in place?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Driftwood Johnson, on the two Smith and Wesson revolvers, on the cylinders, there appear to be 2 sets of circumferentially machined slots both for the locking bolt, and then another set on the cylinder in front of the locking bolt slots. What is the purpose of the secondary slots? Is it a double lock of sorts to keep the cylinder firmly in place?

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I will attempt to answer your question. The S&W 44 Double Action had an unusual cylinder locking system. Yes, there were two rows of locking slots.





There was a relatively conventional spring loaded bolt that engaged the rear set of slots. But in addition to that, there was a raised nub on the forward part of the trigger that engaged the front set of slots.






The mechanism worked a bit differently than most revolvers. With most revolvers, the bolt is withdrawn into the frame as the hammer is cocked, allowing the cylinder to rotate. At some point the bolt pops back up under spring pressure, rubbing against the lead in to the locking slots, and popping into the appropriate slot to lock the cylinder in battery just as the hammer reaches its farthest backwards movement, either single action or double action. The bolt then stays up under spring pressure as the hammer falls, and the mechanism resets to allow the bolt to be withdrawn again for the next shot.

The 44 Double Action was different. The bolt started out withdrawn into the frame and the nub at the front of the trigger stood proud of the frame, locking the cylinder by the front row of slots. Since the nub was physically part of the trigger, it was not spring loaded but was instead stood proud quite rigidly.






Pulling the trigger or cocking the hammer would rock the trigger back, withdrawing the nub from the forward locking notch so the cylinder could rotate. At the same time the spring loaded bolt would begin to rise, so it could do its job of locking the cylinder in position at the end of the stroke.

When the hammer fell, the bolt stayed up just like any other revolver, locking the cylinder in battery. But when the trigger was released, the bolt would withdraw and the nub at the front of the trigger would rise back up, transferring the cylinder locking duty from the bolt to the trigger nub. So the cylinder was never locked in place by both devices at one time, it was one, then the other.



The top of the trigger nub was completely rounded over so it could enter its locking slots without binding. There were no lead ins for these slots because the trigger nub was not spring loaded. It simply rose into the appropriate slot because the cylinder had already been positioned when the hammer went back. The long vertical cuts are clearance cuts to allow the gun to be closed if it was closed with the cylinder out of battery. Since the trigger nub was not spring loaded, it would interfere with the body of the cylinder if the gun were closed between slots and the clearance cuts were not present.

It was an unusual system. This was also the system used on the first two models of the much smaller 38 Double Action revolvers. By the Third Model of the 38 Double Action, S&W changed the locking mechanism and did away with the trigger locking nub and the vertical slots on the cylinder. But they never changed the mechanism on the larger 44, probably because there were far more of the smaller guns sold.

This 3rd Model 38 Double Action lacks the vertical clearance slots the earlier two models had.

 

[Kernel]

That explains that! I'd wondered before about the two "bolts" on those early revolvers.

 

[Dudemeister]

UPDATE:

Finally got the gun out of jail, so I got a chance to look at it in greater detail:

I'm now almost 100% the gun is unfired. I can't see any carbon or powder deposits on the rifling or the cylinder throats. Additionally, there are no marks on the recoil shield.

AS far as the finish is concerned, it looks very good, but there are some wear marks on the front sides of the barel, it looks like holster wear. The bluing has also faded on the bottom of the trigger guard. THis is probably the original finish of the gun. There are a few tiny dings on the left side of the frame near the hammer screw, and a couple of list rust spots where the front of the trigger guard attaches to the frame. The cylinder on the other hand shows quite a bit of wear, and a few scratches.

Another thing I notices is the serial number. The gun came with a tag showing a serial number of 1136. And this is indeed the number stamped on the left side of the grip (under the grip panel). But , under the top strap, there is another SN, 41336.

Which one is the actual serial number ?