2 gun dealers have shootout, one dead

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CentralTexas

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Man Kills Another in Dispute Over War -- Press Calls It a First

By E&P Staff

Published: August 06, 2005 6:30 PM ET

NEW YORK It was bound to happen sooner or later, and in what newspapers in Kentucky are calling a first, one American has killed another in a dispute over the Iraq war.

It happened at Floyd County flea market on Thursday, when two friends, who were firearms vendors there, drew guns after quarreling about the war. Douglas Moore, 65, of Martin, who backs the war, shot and killed Harold Wayne Smith, 56, of Manchester, who opposed it, according to investigators.

Moore was released without being charged after he convinced police he had acted in self-defense. A grand jury may yet hear evidence in the case.

Commonwealth's Attorney Brent Turner said the episode might mark the first death in the U.S. due to a dispute over the war.

One witness, Sam Hamman of Prestonsburg, told the Lexington Herald-Leader, "Harold was talking about the 14 people that were killed in Iraq the other day and Doug said that just as many people were killed on the highways here.”

This quickly escalated into an argument, then to a scuffle, and finally both men drew pistols outside a snack shed. The dead man was apparently just a little slower in firing. Witnesses said he stood for about five seconds before toppling on the walkway.

In a telephone interview with the Lexington paper yesterday, Moore said police had told him not to discuss his feelings about the Iraq war.

"I'm sorry this has happened," Moore, a retired railroad worker, said. "But then what's done can't be undone." Moore told the Lexington reporter he thinks Smith and his family knew him well enough "to know what my thoughts are, his family does, because me and Harold was friends. That's all I'll say."

The daughter of the dead man said the two men were friends and had discussed Iraq before. She said her father "had different opinions than everybody. He felt it was wrong that all of these young people were losing their lives over what was going on. It was just a political disagreement, like a whole lot of people have."


E&P Staff ([email protected])
 
Inevitably (sp?), this will be brought up by some politician, somewhere, in an effort to further restrain the 2nd Am. rights of the rest of us. If someone doesn't have the self-control to keep from drawing and shooting another guy in a flea market over a pilitical squabble, he probably shouldn't be peddling firearms anyhow.
Commonwealth's Attorney Brent Turner said the episode might mark the first death in the U.S. due to a dispute over the war.
Is this a true statistic? I would have thought that some extremist would have done something about it prior to this. :confused:
 
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More details, looks like the dead guy drew first:

Slaying in dispute over war might be a first

By Lee Mueller

EASTERN KENTUCKY BUREAU


PRESTONSBURG - The Iraq war has been a divisive issue in America for more than two years now, but a shooting at an Eastern Kentucky flea market this week might have marked the first time a dispute over the war has resulted in a death.

A quarrel between two firearms vendors at a Floyd County flea market on Thursday allegedly led both men -- described as "good friends" -- to draw guns. Douglas Moore, 65, of Martin, who supports the war, shot and killed Harold Wayne Smith, 56, of Manchester, who opposed it, investigators said.

Moore was questioned at the Floyd County Jail, but he was released without being charged after Kentucky State Police said it appears he acted in self-defense.

Evidence in the case will be presented to a Floyd County grand jury, said Commonwealth's Attorney Brent Turner, who said the episode might mark the first death in the United States resulting from a dispute over the war.

Both Smith and Moore maintained gun-trading tables at the Bull Creek Trade Center near Prestonsburg, and witnesses said they began arguing over the war early Thursday morning.

One witness, Sam Hamman of Prestonsburg, told The Floyd County Times that the two men always carried guns and bickered frequently about the quality of guns, knives and the war.

"Harold was talking about the 14 people that were killed in Iraq the other day and Doug said that just as many people were killed on the highways here," Hamman told the paper.

Showdown at snack stand

Another witness, Chuck Newsome, said yesterday the Sept. 11 attacks also were included in the argument, which quickly escalated into an altercation and then to a kind of showdown in front of the market's snack stand.

After a scuffle, Newsome said he saw Smith stand beside the snack shed, pull a small pistol out of his pocket, cock the hammer and say, "I'm going to blow your ... brains out."

Witnesses said Moore pulled a .38-caliber pistol from his pocket.

"Doug was just quicker," Harold Hannah of Salyersville said.

Newsome said he heard a pistol shot and assumed Smith had fired, but then saw blood spatter near Smith on the snack stand.

Coroner Roger Nelson said Smith was shot once in the upper left side of his chest. Witnesses said he stood for about five seconds before falling on the paved walkway.

'Really nice guys'

Market manager Mary Neeley Elkins said she helped administer CPR. She declined further comment yesterday, except to describe Smith as "an A-No. 1 guy."

Smith was pronounced dead at 9:29 a.m. Thursday.

Newsome described both men as "really nice guys."

"They always had words -- not fighting words -- like friends do," he said. "Doug said he didn't mean to kill him, the way he did. He just meant to hit him up in the shoulder."

In a telephone interview yesterday, Moore said police had told him not to discuss what sparked the incident or discuss his feelings about the Iraq war.

"I'm sorry this has happened," said Moore, a retired railroad worker, "but then what's done can't be undone."

Moore said he thinks Smith and his family knew him well enough "to know what my thoughts are, his family does, because me and Harold was friends. That's all I'll say."

Widow, daughter grieve

In Manchester, Smith's widow, Kathleen, a home-health nurse, and his daughter, Robin Lipps of Beckley, W.Va., were grief-stricken and stunned.

"We feel like we're in a dream right now," said Kathleen Smith, a former hospice nurse.

"It doesn't make any sense to us," said Lipps, who drove to the flea market Thursday to question witnesses about what happened.

Smith, a father of three who was being treated for diabetes and a heart condition, retired from the state highway department in 1990 after suffering a heart attack, his wife said. He underwent open-heart surgery in 1999.

Kathleen Smith said the two men had been friends for many years after meeting at a trading event.

"They had had discussions over the same thing (Iraq) before," Lipps said.

She said her father "had different opinions than everybody. He felt it was wrong that all of these young people were losing their lives over what was going on. It was just a political disagreement, like a whole lot of people have."
 
he stood for about five seconds before toppling on the walkway.
This makes me wonder--where did the shot hit, and what was each using?

As for if someone else drew first on me--I'd die, since I'm under 21, and can't carry :uhoh:.
Who all votes we take a trip to beat this guy up? :fire: I'm with Ridge.
 
Eightball said:
Who all votes we take a trip to beat this guy up?
Beat who up? The guy who drew second, and fired in self-defense?

The guy who drew first and threatened to blow his friend's brains out is the guy who died. Why would you want to beat up someone for defending himself?
 
oct_97 wrote:

Now we know why children under the age of 21 are not allowed to carry.

not to hijack the thread, but:

As of 9/1/05, Texas will grant CHL's (CCW) to U.S. Military (reservist, national guard, state guard, and active duty) personnel at age 18.

granted, ATF and state law do not allow someone under 21 years of age to legally purchase a handgun.

and, if a parent goes to buy a firearm at a gun shop (FFL) with the intention of giving it to their son/daughter CHL holder, with the intent of avoiding the NICS check their sibling cannot qualify for, it is a straw purchase and a federal felony.

the only legal way, i suppose, would be for the under-21-year-old either (a) have it issued to them from the military, or (2) somehow otherwise "acquire" it.

just another example of how lawmakers have no sense whatsoever when making a law. great, an 18-20 year old in the military can have a CHL but can't legally purchase or acquire the firearm.
 
it's hard for me to believe this story is even true--was it reported in reputable news sources?

As far as under 21 ownership--is this something that changed? In NY it used to be at least that you could get a pistol permit at 18, but couldn't buy a pistol yourself until 21. It WAS legal, however, for someone else over 21 with a permit to but the handgun, and then it was placed on both your permit and theirs. Once you turned 21 it could then be removed from the other persons permit. This was the only way a person who was under 21 but had a permit could legally own a handgun. I know this was how it was because that's how it worked when I got my first pistol--my brother actually purchased it and then it was on both our permits. That may have changed, however, since it was 20 years ago now.
 
I love the original article, "It was bound to happen..." Why exactly was it bound to happen?
 
Now we know why children under the age of 21 are not allowed to carry.
:confused: :confused: :confused: :scrutiny: Tell us. Why? What about adults under 21? What about children over 21?

I love the original article, "It was bound to happen..." Why exactly was it bound to happen?
Because the peacenik couldn't control himself.
 
(a) have it issued to them from the military, or (2) somehow otherwise "acquire" it.

AFAIK, most of the military holsters are held at the waist or suspended on the right thigh. Not a lot of room for "concealment".

The only other option would be concealment or inheritance.

although. the 18 yo adult would not be able to buy ammo for his inheritance- it'd be a pretty short lived carry.
 
'he stood for about five seconds before toppling on the walkway'

This makes me wonder--where did the shot hit, and what was each using?

Possibilities include left upper lobe of the lung, aortic arch, left subclavian, yadda, yadda.

aarch.jpg
 
I'm gonna blow your ..... brains out!
And once again, Darwin wins - as he always does and ever will.

If you're gonna shoot someone - especially someone you know has a gun of his own - don't warn that someone first.

JUST DO IT!

I Can't imagine what was going through that guy's mind. Maybe he was just joking with his friend and never thought for a minute he'd get shot. Who knows? :uhoh:
 
Eightball's Quote:

he stood for about five seconds before toppling on the walkway.

This makes me wonder--where did the shot hit, and what was each using?

As for if someone else drew first on me--I'd die, since I'm under 21, and can't carry .
Who all votes we take a trip to beat this guy up? I'm with Ridge.

Henry,

He wants to beat someone up for defending his life and wants a mob with him to do it, does that answer your question?
 
J.C.
I don't believe I'd be in too much of a hurry to try and beat up a fellow who's already proven he'll kill you if you attack him....
+1 :D



It is a shame that he had to kill his friend. I feel sorry for him, his family and the dead man's family.
 
A close friend of mine is a Sierra Club, Democrat left-winger. Things get so bad between us during major campaigns that we just agree not to send each other e-mails. We both, of course, think the other's off-base politically. However, I can't imagine that either of us would be stupid enough to find ourselves in the situation described in this thread.

Stupid is as stupid does.
 
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