2 gun dealers have shootout, one dead

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I have a really good friend here at work that I basically don't socialize with anymore because of all the Bush-bashing e-mails and stuff he threw at me during the '04 campaign. He is not anti-gun but he absolutely despises anyone named Bush for some unexplained reason. Terrible that politics has screwed up our friendship.

Greg
 
Sorry, thread hijack--I thought it was legal for a parent to give a child a firearm as a gift? (assuming the child was legal to own)

Does that mean I can't give my brother a shotgun for his birthday either?
 
Ok, wait a minute. The guy who died was observed pulling his handgun out of his pocket, aimed it at his friend and yelled he was going to blow his bleeping brains out and he was the one who was killed? What, was the other guy Jesse James from the old west? Fastest gunslinger in town? The guy who drew first obviously had the drop on the old timer. I just can't picture how the living guy was able to pull, aim and shoot without the dead guy getting off a shot in this situation. Unless the dead guy really had no intention of shooting in the first place. If that's the case, talk about your practical joke gone very WRONG!!!!! :eek:
 
For everyone flaming me--my post, and the other news article with more information as to who drew first were both posted in the same minute--meaning that I put up mine at about the same time as the other, so therefore I COULD NOT HAVE READ the other post before posting. I take back what I said now that more info is available, so please quit quoting it to "attack/defend/qualify" opinions on people under 21.
 
I don't know about other states, but my understanding is that here in Minnesota the survivor would have some real problems proving self defense, the reason being it sounds like he was a willing participant in the dispute. In other words if you are carrying you want to avoid getting into arguments. If an argument escalates to a scuffle you want to de-escalate the situation and leave pronto. Now maybe the guy tried to get away and couldn't, maybe it all happened too fast, ss always the devil is in the details, and all we have to go on is a short news article, but I've got to believe this issue could prove critical.

What is the rule on this in your states?

As to this being inevitable, I'd have to reluctantly agree with this. People are imperfect. Gun owners are not exempt from this imperfection. Bad things will happen.

However that doesn't mean all gun owners need be punished for the mistakes of a very few. When discussing this with anti's do not fall into the trap of an assumed burden of perfection for gun owners. Why should we be held to a perfect standard when no one else is. Doctors kill people all the time. Cars kill people, Carnival rides kill people, Hell things designed to save people sometimes kill people (air bags). That doesn't mean we outlaw them. You need to factor the bad with the good. When you do that you still arrive at the conclusion that guns do much more good than harm (like doctors, well... hopefully anyway).
 
As of 9/1/05, Texas will grant CHL's (CCW) to U.S. Military (reservist, national guard, state guard, and active duty) personnel at age 18.

granted, ATF and state law do not allow someone under 21 years of age to legally purchase a handgun.

and, if a parent goes to buy a firearm at a gun shop (FFL) with the intention of giving it to their son/daughter CHL holder, with the intent of avoiding the NICS check their sibling cannot qualify for, it is a straw purchase and a federal felony.

the only legal way, i suppose, would be for the under-21-year-old either (a) have it issued to them from the military, or (2) somehow otherwise "acquire" it.
It is a straw purchase if a person who is not elegible provides you with the money and you make the purchase for them in order to avoid the NICS check. It is not a straw purchase if a father buys a handgun using his own money and gives it to his 19-year old son who is legally allowed to possess a handgun, but not allowed to purchase a handgun.
 
If the witness is telling the truth, sounds like self-defense to me. Sounds like a lot of Westerns I've seen. Whoever draws first is unjustified in using deadly force, in a simple standoff, and whoever draws last, win or lose, is the justified one. In this case, the justified one shot faster - this is a good thing - if the dead man didn't wanna get killed, he shouldn't have chosen to escalate the situation from an argument to a deadly duel.

And the CCW age should definitely be 18 IMO - actually, there should be no CCW laws, as restricting the right at all is a fundamental violation of the Constitutional RKBA. But if you're old enough to be drafted & die for your country, then I think you should be able to defend youself with a firearm.
 
And the CCW age should definitely be 18 IMO

Go read This PDF File and you'll see why I don't agree with you.

Sorry, but I'd not be turning most teenagers loose with a gun for ANY reason.

As for the military thing.... I'm not so sure that anybody under 18 should really be there either. Although, on the other hand, they would be under almost constant adult supervision. ;)



Oh, and Eightball....

Even the very first article stated that the fellow wasn't charged by the police, and that he convinced them he fired in self-defense.
So, if the police, at least at the time, didn't think the guy should be arrested, I don't really see where anybody just reading the news report could or should claim he needs his "ass kicked", or that they'd like to go do it. Especially since he undoubtedly still has a gun or two... ;)
( It's your logic here that I have a problem with, not your age. )


J.C.
 
This is so stupid. I just can't imagine a political augument I've ever seen or heard or been part of devolving into a gun fight.

Foolish with a capital "F", at least the one who pulled the gun first lost.
 
mudpuppy wrote:

Sorry, thread hijack--I thought it was legal for a parent to give a child a firearm as a gift? (assuming the child was legal to own)

and hawkmoon wrote:

It is a straw purchase if a person who is not elegible provides you with the money and you make the purchase for them in order to avoid the NICS check. It is not a straw purchase if a father buys a handgun using his own money and gives it to his 19-year old son who is legally allowed to possess a handgun, but not allowed to purchase a handgun.

there is a very fine line here. ATF says that a straw purchase does not require someone to hand someone else the money and then have that person purchase the firearm.

a straw purchase only requires that a person purchases it for someone else with the intent to avoid the NICS check.

since an 18 year old is FEDERALLY not able to purchase a firearm, the parent is clearly purchasing it, even if for a family member [i.e. his 18 year old son], with the intent of avoiding the NICS check. the 18 year old person is not FEDERALLY qualified to purchase a handgun per federal guidelines, hence, the nature of the purchase by the parent IS to avoid the NICS check.

hence it is a straw purchase.

the "gift" exception implies that the recipient of the gift him/herself would also pass the NICS check. presumably, this is not true since the 18-year-old recipient of the gift would not pass the NICS check due to his age being an immediate disqualification.

let's take the logic of an 18-year-old person being able to possess a handgun, even though federal guidelines prohibit it. let's apply that to a Title II firearm. let's say a transferable machine gun. all NFA items state the transferee listed on the Form 4 must be 21 years of age or older. so can an adult purchase this transferable machine gun for his 18-year-old son?

the answer is clearly "no." people may say "no" because all NFA ownership is recorded by the NFA Branch. however, this is not the issue. the issue is whether or not the purchase would be legitimate or a straw purchase under the eyes of FEDERAL law.

under Federal Law, either purchase, Title I or Title II, would be a straw purchase. it is just easier to see it is a straw purchase with a Title II weapon.

however the Form 4473 is filled out with either a Title I or Title II firearm.

so it appears that it is still a straw purchase, if it is a handgun purchase, and the parent is purchasing it for his/her 18-year-old child with the intent of avoiding a NICS check for their son/daughter who cannot legally purchase it themselves.
 
Shooting like this aren't that uncommon in KY history. We don't have to retreat in Ky. Like some states. The other man drew his pistol first and he should have been shooting now talking.
Several years ago a friend of mine killed a guy in a bar .Little disagreement and person went to back pocket for pistol and got hunting knife in heart.Self defense

I live in a old house and old timers on this road. Tell me a man was gun down and killed in my front yard in disagreement, over if the mans cow was getting enough to eat.
Shoot out are part of the history of Ky and these people added another chapter in eastern Ky.
I have a friend that in his 80's and I love to listen to him tell of the shootings and fighting that went on as he was going up in my area.
 
"I just can't picture how the living guy was able to pull, aim and shoot without the dead guy getting off a shot "


Point Shooting
 
Yeah, cause using sights has been proven to add 3 whole seconds to the firing stroke. :rolleyes:

I think it was more willingness to actually shoot. Once you pull it, you're kind of committed. If you hesitate to fire, some ol' boy is going to beat you even from under the gun.
 
Now we know why children under the age of 21 are not allowed to carry.

I am a law abiding 20 year old adult. I vote, and pay taxes. I can fight and die for my country. I can get married. I can obtain credit, and make a car payment. I stay out of trouble. I have owned handguns for over 2 years.

I am a adult, with many of the same responsibility's as people my senior.

For some reason there are two things in this country/state I can't do. Get a CHL, and drink alcohol.

People over 21 do not deserve more rights than my peers and I.

This is a forum with many freedom minded people. Many here belive that we should have the right to defend ourselfs. I share in that belief.

What you said oct 97 is offensive. Your comment makes it sound as I'm a lesser person because of a few months difference in age.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."
I am having trouble finding age mentioned here. Maybe you see something I can't?

Sorry back on topic. If the dead guy pulled his gun first, then he got what he was asking for. What a lousy fight to get killed over.
 
Carried concealed illegally at my graveyard shift job at 18, to and from and intermittantly at other times.

Bought the pistols from a guy I worked with.

Strangely enough, didn't hurt anyone or commit any crimes. :rolleyes:
 
Curare,

I would guess it tore the left subclavian, since the witness described it as "upper left chest", and he saw blood splash on the snack bar.

His blood pressure plummeted, he passed out in just a few seconds, and was clinically dead a couple minutes later.

Perfect shot if someone is pointing a weapon at you...
 
Sounds like two old guys who played with guns their whole lives and found out they are not toys. So they were open carry? I thought there was no concealed carry allowed in Kentucky.?
 
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