.223 ammo for home defense?
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BADUNAME37
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I have constructed a lot of walls and complete rooms in my life. First of all, does the Box-of-Truth keep a separation between the first two sheets of sheetrock at 3 1/2" spacing (for 2x4 studs) or 5 1/2" spacing (for 2x6 studs)? Is there any type of insulation or other material that may have been installed inside the wall cavity to help with sound reduction from room to room, or to help keep a certain room warmer or cooler than the other rooms? Does the Box of Truth ever simulate going through a 2x4 or 2x6 stud? How about hitting a sheetrock screw going into a stud? How about through a metal electrical box? How about through wooden paneling or molding or window & door casings or through ceramic wall tiles?
Secondly, one must consider how differently a projectile may likely react to going through a sheetrock wall, then a space, representing a room (say 10') then another wall, separated by another space of, perhaps 8'.
I'm sure, once the projectile is upset by the first two pieces of sheetrock, the way it then performs would most likely be different traveling through a long space of a room before hitting the next wall than through evenly-piled or evenly-placed sheetrock in the confines of a box!
For example, if the projectile is deflected in any way, it may not even finish going through a 10' long room before it does something like changes direction enough to cause it to begin going lengthwise into some of the room's sheetrock, say, on the ceiling or on one of the walls!
So, where it appears the projectile will go through so many sheets of sheetrock, the spacing between wall partitions must be taken into consideration!
If the projectile begins running lengthwise through a wall, remember, it is then going to have to start plowing through studs (every 16" or 24") and possibly even through any metal electrical boxes!
The only way one could really test this would be to go into an old house that is about to be torn down (or ready to be completely gutted for major renovations) and perform actual ballistics (terminal ballistics) testing in rooms and through walls and other surfaces that more represent just how it would behave shooting through walls and rooms of a typical house.
A projectile hitting something as simple as a hardwood or steel bed post could drastically change the outcome of just where the projectile is going to continue and where it will end up, that is, if it hasn't already been stopped.
Secondly, one must consider how differently a projectile may likely react to going through a sheetrock wall, then a space, representing a room (say 10') then another wall, separated by another space of, perhaps 8'.
I'm sure, once the projectile is upset by the first two pieces of sheetrock, the way it then performs would most likely be different traveling through a long space of a room before hitting the next wall than through evenly-piled or evenly-placed sheetrock in the confines of a box!
For example, if the projectile is deflected in any way, it may not even finish going through a 10' long room before it does something like changes direction enough to cause it to begin going lengthwise into some of the room's sheetrock, say, on the ceiling or on one of the walls!
So, where it appears the projectile will go through so many sheets of sheetrock, the spacing between wall partitions must be taken into consideration!
If the projectile begins running lengthwise through a wall, remember, it is then going to have to start plowing through studs (every 16" or 24") and possibly even through any metal electrical boxes!
The only way one could really test this would be to go into an old house that is about to be torn down (or ready to be completely gutted for major renovations) and perform actual ballistics (terminal ballistics) testing in rooms and through walls and other surfaces that more represent just how it would behave shooting through walls and rooms of a typical house.
A projectile hitting something as simple as a hardwood or steel bed post could drastically change the outcome of just where the projectile is going to continue and where it will end up, that is, if it hasn't already been stopped.
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Let's introduce the Devil's Advocate to this discussion. Why NOT penetrate walls? Why give up a serious tactical advantage? The Army decided they needed the abiilty, they issue penetrator rounds as the standard to all troops.
Of course I wouldn't want to shoot my sleeping children, wife, or neighbor. But how many have actually plotted out sightlines in your house to project where bullets go? Examine the actual risk first. Are the other residents actually sleeping on the same floor? If you do have to shoot, will it be down an open hallway, stairwell, or through openings in the structure? And does that mean that people are located in front of or behind the intruder?
If barricaded in a room, and the intruder is testing the resistance of a cheap residential hollow core door with equally cheap doorlock - do you want highly frangible rounds that are depleted of energy before they even strike them?
Not even to mention how did you associate with someone who targeted you as weak enough to intimidate, and who lived in a structure so insubstantial they could easily break in, with no fear that the helpless neighbors wouldn't call the cops after someone beat down the door across the street? Don't worry about the ammo, save the money for a UHaul. There's MUCH bigger problems to solve first.
Everyone posts up questions about low penetration ammo, when in reality the risk may be very low to non-existent. Don't forget - the Police DON'T issue it, and when they follow on the heels of the perps to clean them out, YOUR municipality accepted the risk and determined in the overall situation, it wasn't justifiable to use it.
Use what they use, it will do the job and stand up in court.
Of course I wouldn't want to shoot my sleeping children, wife, or neighbor. But how many have actually plotted out sightlines in your house to project where bullets go? Examine the actual risk first. Are the other residents actually sleeping on the same floor? If you do have to shoot, will it be down an open hallway, stairwell, or through openings in the structure? And does that mean that people are located in front of or behind the intruder?
If barricaded in a room, and the intruder is testing the resistance of a cheap residential hollow core door with equally cheap doorlock - do you want highly frangible rounds that are depleted of energy before they even strike them?
Not even to mention how did you associate with someone who targeted you as weak enough to intimidate, and who lived in a structure so insubstantial they could easily break in, with no fear that the helpless neighbors wouldn't call the cops after someone beat down the door across the street? Don't worry about the ammo, save the money for a UHaul. There's MUCH bigger problems to solve first.
Everyone posts up questions about low penetration ammo, when in reality the risk may be very low to non-existent. Don't forget - the Police DON'T issue it, and when they follow on the heels of the perps to clean them out, YOUR municipality accepted the risk and determined in the overall situation, it wasn't justifiable to use it.
Use what they use, it will do the job and stand up in court.
JustinJ
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I think the biggest downside to an AR, or any other rifle caliber, for inisde HD is deafening noise and muzzle blast which is only exasperated by a shorter barrel. A pistol caliber carbine has an advantage in this regard. However, IMO, the best HD weapon is a AUG or other bullpup platform with silencer firing 40 to 50 grain bullets. Some may think these are too light but the 5.7 has proven to be an exteremely effective round at close range. If a silencer can not be used the best flash suppressor available should.
BADUNAME37
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If the bad guy is behind a wall, or in an area of my house where I know he is, and I fear for my life from this person (or persons), I want to be able to take shots through a partition wall in order to stop the threat as soon as possible before the threat kills me and anyone else who may live in my house!
BADUNAME37
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I shot a 12 gauge 2 3/4" Magnum 00BUCK (18.5" barrel) from inside a very narrow inside room with no hearing protection. Yes, it was extremely loud, yes, my ears were ringing. It didn't damage my hearing any more than my hearing was already damaged!
If my life is about to be snuffed out by some threat, do you think I am going to be worried about my hearing?
JustinJ
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Okay, but we're talking about planning ahead here. Nothing in my post even begins to imply one should choose death over hearing damage but if you can take steps in advance to mitigate the loss why wouldnt you? However, I never said a thing about hearing loss to begin with. The main concern i am addressing is disorientation.
The point about the box-o-truth not taking into consideration the angle of the shot as well as what is in the room or even giving the space between sheet rock room-like dimensions is a good one. I understand they were just looking for quantitative data "if you shoot X brand/weight/bullet type .223 it will penetrate Y number of 'walls' with Z ballistics".
However it is worth considering what kinds of objects in the house may or may not stop/slow the bullet.
I have recently jumped on the AR-15 home defense wagon. Upon several range visits, I have found that the platform offers (for ME) superior firepower, good range, ease of use, and acceptable potential (or more importantly lack there of) collateral damage. While it is not "at hand" from the time I spring from my bed, should a threat be detected it will be the next object retrieved once my family is safely huddled together.
I don't see the over penetration issues being a valid point for my set up. My neighborhood consists of single and single and a half floor ranch houses. The garage set up and thus the bedroom orientation is flip flopped for each house. That is to say, if I were to fire my AR down my narrow hallway at an intruder (which is as far as I am willing to "clear" in that situation), any missed or pass through rounds will have to clear the wall to my laundry room, a cheap wooden closet door, a second wall to my laundry room, and will either pass into my garage and into the external wall of my house OR if a couple feet to the right into the side of my refrigerator.
Should a shot clear my house's structure. My neighbor's house is situated in such a way that it would have to clear a mirrored structure of mine before what ever is left of the bullet would find its way to the living quarters of her house.
While it wouldn't be my first choice, I'm not overly concerned about using ball ammo if that was the only thing on hand.
However it is worth considering what kinds of objects in the house may or may not stop/slow the bullet.
I have recently jumped on the AR-15 home defense wagon. Upon several range visits, I have found that the platform offers (for ME) superior firepower, good range, ease of use, and acceptable potential (or more importantly lack there of) collateral damage. While it is not "at hand" from the time I spring from my bed, should a threat be detected it will be the next object retrieved once my family is safely huddled together.
I don't see the over penetration issues being a valid point for my set up. My neighborhood consists of single and single and a half floor ranch houses. The garage set up and thus the bedroom orientation is flip flopped for each house. That is to say, if I were to fire my AR down my narrow hallway at an intruder (which is as far as I am willing to "clear" in that situation), any missed or pass through rounds will have to clear the wall to my laundry room, a cheap wooden closet door, a second wall to my laundry room, and will either pass into my garage and into the external wall of my house OR if a couple feet to the right into the side of my refrigerator.
Should a shot clear my house's structure. My neighbor's house is situated in such a way that it would have to clear a mirrored structure of mine before what ever is left of the bullet would find its way to the living quarters of her house.
While it wouldn't be my first choice, I'm not overly concerned about using ball ammo if that was the only thing on hand.
BADUNAME37
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I have a pair of ProEar stereo hearing protectors with left and right mic's and R&L volumes. I would really think twice before using THEM in an emergency situation, as I want to be able to hear everything about where the BG is or might be! Putting those on would be disorienting!
If they allowed sound suppressors in this state, I would have one.
LawScholar
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I love my AR. It's my first choice for an HD weapon, even over my 870. Having shot a lot of stuff with it at the range, I have to laugh at all the gun shop commandos who say 5.56 is weak. Compared to a .308, yes. Compared to just about any other HD round no. Hearing that throaty "blam!" and having 29 rounds left took all doubt out of my mind the first time I fired it.
Plus we had an old TV, fridge, and microwave once, and we took them out to shoot. We shot them each twice with 9, .40, .45, then the 5.56. As much as I trust my .40, what I leaned that day is that even a beefy handgun is a pea shooter next to a good AR carbine!
Plus we had an old TV, fridge, and microwave once, and we took them out to shoot. We shot them each twice with 9, .40, .45, then the 5.56. As much as I trust my .40, what I leaned that day is that even a beefy handgun is a pea shooter next to a good AR carbine!
allaroundhunter
Member
My AR is all that I could want out of a HD weapon (except a suppressor added on would be nice). It is accurate, has more stopping power than a pistol, light recoil, and more available follow up shots than I ever plan on needing. Also, being that mine has a collapsible stock, it can be fitted to several shooters in the home. As far as penetration goes, it has been addressed here plenty. All of my plans to defend my home have *ideal* shooting lanes that put neighbors out of the line of fire should a round penetrate that far so I am not too concerned with it.
*I say ideal because as we all know, "The best laid plans of mice and men"...
*I say ideal because as we all know, "The best laid plans of mice and men"...
You know, there is something to be said about the .223's report. It's a cracker, for sure. I found that out at the range this weekend for the first time. Dumped a couple of mags into the target at 50 yards. Walked out to check the damage. Walked back, inserted a fresh mag, dropped the bolt, lined up my shot, CRACK! >>rinnnnnnnnnng<< My dumb self forgot to pull my ears back down before I pulled the trigger
Even out in the open, the report reverberating off of the metal roof of the stall had my right ear humming for the rest of the day.
Chalk the .223 up there with the .357 as a round I don't want to touch off indoors unless I had no choice
...but some yahoo poking around in my house would be an acceptable reason to quasi-deafen myself for a day or two
Even out in the open, the report reverberating off of the metal roof of the stall had my right ear humming for the rest of the day.Chalk the .223 up there with the .357 as a round I don't want to touch off indoors unless I had no choice
...but some yahoo poking around in my house would be an acceptable reason to quasi-deafen myself for a day or two
Sam Cade
Member
See my links in post #23 for just that
mortablunt
Member
Need I introduce the infamous M-44?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACkmNvDGE3U
That fire in the background in an AR in 5.56. At 20 seconds in, the man fires the Mosin. BOOOM! Imagine how safe I feel knowing I have that in my closet
Maverick223
Member
FWIW I use 55gr. Hornady TAP/V-Max. It may not be the best for limiting penetration (after all a round that doesn't penentrate isn't effective), but I am confident that it'll get the job done. It's accurate, expands/fragments well (thus limiting penetration), and is the same weight as my standard target fodder so my optics don't need a re-zero (note that this may not be the case with all rifles, even with the same weight projectile).
henschman
Member
I think a 5.56 carbine or rifle is about as good as it gets for a home defense weapon. With lightweight FMJ, JHP, JSP, or HD rounds, it will usually fragment sufficiently after penetrating one wall that it won't leave a house... yet it penetrates well enough to cut through residential interior doors with plenty of power to be lethal on the other side. And it still penetrates well enough to defeat just about any soft armor.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
In terms of peak dBA, a 16-18" unbraked .223 is certainly louder than a pistol-caliber carbine, but is actually comparable in peak loudness to a 4" 9mm/.40/.45 or an 18" 12-gauge, and considerably less loud than a .357 revolver.
Barrels shorter than 16", and brakes, significantly increase noise/blast/flash, though, which is why I would not want a brake of any sort on a carbine intended for indoor defensive use.
As to penetration, I feel that 11-12" in gelatin is sufficient for civilian HD use, and there are plenty of good JHP's and SP's that meet the FBI 12" standard while limiting penetration of exterior walls compared to handgun JHP or 00 buckshot.
BADUNAME37
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Yes, I was aware of that post when I made mine. Thank you for pointing it out, though!
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