.223--First shot or two not in group

[Wolfman Bill]

Morning Shooters

I’m looking for some insight from the shooters here.

As some of you might know I have been working with (mainly fooling around with) light loads and subsonic loads for my .223.

I have tried a slew of powders with a verity of power amounts and have definitely gotten the noise levels and subsonic noise where I want it. (I have a self imposed noise limitation where I shoot)

Now the problem: I have an accuracy issue on the first shot or two. Seems to be across the board using about all powders and bullets (some a little better or worse than others but still there with all loads I have tried) .

I mainly shooting at 50 & 75 meters and out of a 10 shot group the first cold barrel shot will go way low right (maybe 2” low and 1”-2” right). Maybe the next shot will be in the group maybe not. Then I will get 5 or 6 in a row that group to about ½”-3/4".

I say cold barrel but it seems more like first shot because when it’s grouping I can shoot one then wait 10 minutes and shoot another and still put it in the group.

I was lubricating the bullets for a bit better group at the low velocities I am shooting at (subsonic) so thought maybe the first shot was lubricating the barrel then the follow up shots were better due to the barrel lubrication. So I have quit lubricating the bullets but the first shot still goes low right.

My next thought was maybe it was because the powder was going to one end of the case as I was carrying the rifle. SO, is took great care in only inserting the magazine after the rifle was on the bench and pointed at target. I even made sure I racked in the first shot same as all the follow up shots. Still not convinced it wasn’t powder movement I tried (multiple times) before each shot (including the first) of tipping the muzzle up then lightly bumping the rifle butt on the bench (no help with low right first shot)

I have tried a 10 case set of primer holes drilled out to 3mm (no help).

Tried magnum primers including pistol primers (again no help).

I’m kind of lost on what to try next (therefore the request here)

At the moment I am loading two rounds first (using old pulled bullets) as kind of throw away rounds, then shoot them into the backstop, then start my shooting for effect.

Anybody have any idea what is going on? (16" barrel with 1:9 twist)

 

[amlevin]

I've got the same issue with some regular loads in my rifle. Seems like the rifle needs to "warm up" just a little.

What temp is it when you're shooting? My .308 shoots real well when I shoot 4-5 shots as a warm-up. Letting the chambered round sit for a few moments, to warm up to the temp of the action and barrel, seems to stabilize the performance, especially when it's 40 degrees.

 

[Funshooter45]

I'm not sure if it's temperature necessarily. Are your first 2 shots fired in a clean barrel? Getting a little bit of powder residue coating the barrel can make things more consistent. And if you are changing powders when testing loads, that can cause a bit of inconsistency for the first couple shots too. Not all powders do that, but I have noticed a couple Alliant powders that don't seem to like other powders residue.

I do the same as you do when testing new loads. I make a couple extra fouling loads and shoot them at a separate target before I really start evaluating load data. Sometimes those first 2 shoot exactly to the same POI as the next ones do. Sometimes they don't. But it doesn't seem to be temperature related.

 

[Wolfman Bill]

Afternoon Funshooter45

I usually clean the rifle only once per week (on Sunday) so most shots are on a previous days normal shooting residue. I have tried a couple of times to see what a clean barrel will do first bullet but nothing conclusive as the first shot usually goes really wild after a cleaning but I usually don’t dry patch till spotless. Good thought though, maybe I will try a good barrel cleaning then dry patching till I get a completely dry bore.

Also a good thought on the powder changes. I have been trying a lot of different powders to try & determine what shoots best at around 1000 ft second. I usually shoot a new loading about 3 days in a row so you would think the 2nd and 3rd day would show a difference in first shot grouping if it was powder change related. Still something I should probably look at to see if it has positive or negative effect of first shot groupings. I will now start tracking the powder change with the grouping & charge size data.

 

[Wolfman Bill]

Afternoon amlevin

Thanks for the feedback.

The ambient temps have varied from about 18°f to around 70°f so it doesn’t seem ambient temp related. In any case I shoot just out back of my house (therefore the noise concern) so the rifle is close to the same base temp on first bullet as I just carry it out ready to go and shoot. The rifle is probably closer to the outside temp as the shots progress but first shots are all close to the same.

I just don’t have a handle on this, so keep the suggestions coming.

 

[jcwit]

I don't own a rifle rimfire or center fire that is dead on with the first shot. They all need at least 1 or 2 fouling shots.

With my rimfire rifles if I let them set for 10 to 15 minutes they require a warm-up shot before the are dead on again.

Now if they're cleaned it may take as many as 10 to 20 rounds for the rimfire rifles to settle in.

 

[Wolfman Bill]

Afternoon jcwit

I agree that some of my other rifles do that too, to some extent but 2” low and 2” right at 75 meters is awfully far out. My other rifles are only out a ¼” to maybe ½” max. Plus this AR is pretty darn close on all shots using 2950 ft/second hand loads.

I did put up some new targets this afternoon (I use 3x5 cards with dots on them) and maybe found a little smoking gun thing. I use small 1” dots and the first and sometimes second bullet misses the dot. I put the target (card) under my lit magnifying ring and it looks like maybe that first bullet is not totally stabilizing as I can faintly see a slight oblong entry hole. I guess I’m going to have to find a place where I can shoot farther than 75 meters to see if the bullet is tumbling at longer ranges.

 

[jcwit]

I have a .22 rimfire Harrington & Richardson M12, Single Shot that will throw the first shot 4 to 6 inches upper right approx 2 o'clock every time. After that it settles down. This is at 50 yds, with SK Rifle Match.

My other target rifles aren't quite that bad, Kimber 82G, Rem. 540 XR, Winchester 52B.

 

[kingmt]

I get that every time I stop shooting for 15 minuets.

 

[ROCKMAN 308]

What powder/bullet are you using?? Grains?

 

[Wolfman Bill]

Evening ROCKMAN 308

I have used Red Dot, Blue Dot, W-231, Power Pistol, Tite Group, and Trail Boss. With loading ranging from 2.5 gr to 4.5 gr.

I like the Red Dot and Tite Group best but due to the small amounts it is difficult to load precisely metered amounts without a fairly intense weighing routine for EVERY load. Even 1/10 grain makes a notable difference in group size with these small quantity loads.

So lately I have been using Trial Boss as it has more bulk to it so not only fills the case more but I feel I have more control on the weighing process. Pretty easy to get all the loads within .5 grains of each other with good confidence using Trail Boss. I get a decent case fill also. At the moment I am running 3.9 gr trail boss at about 1000 ft/second.

The thing is: so far the first and usually second bullet shot is out of the group with every powder/bullet/loading I have tried. In fact if I’m not careful and get the bullet speed up in the transonic range the group opens up significantly.

As for bullets. I shoot mainly 52 or 55 grain FB as the FB seem to stabilize at a little lower foot per second than similar longer boat tails. I am currently shooting 55 gr Remington FB but have tried some Sierra 52 FBHP and some of my 55 gr Horandy FBHP precision varmint bullets I use in my 22/250. I find it difficult to believe it is bullet brand or bullet type related as it is ALWAYS the first and sometimes the second bullet fired that goes astray but once it gets going it shoots the rest of the bullets into a ragged hole at 75 meters. Now it could be a bullet length thing after what I think I found with my first shot today looking like it might have been starting to tumble as it entered the target at 75 meters.

 

[ROCKMAN 308]

Are you shooting suppresed? I use varget in all my 223's 1-7/1-8/1-9 and never have various except on a clean bore. 24 GRAINS WITH 77 GR BTHP 26 GRAINS WITH 52/55 GRAIN

 

[Wolfman Bill]

Evening again ROCKMAN 308

No, I wish I was but doesn’t seem worth the effort as my shooting area is shrouded enough that the gun report isn’t too bad (neighbors say they can’t hear it enough to be bothersome). But a supersonic bullet crack can be heard quite a ways as the target is unshrouded.

I have used Varget in some of my full power 223 loads with great results but I would never try it at subsonic loadings. That powder is just too slow for my tastes at subsonic loadings. How many grains you shooting to go subsonic, got to be well under 5gr I would imagine.

 

[ROCKMAN 308]

Never shot it sub sonic just suppressed