223 high primers
- Thread starter edfardos
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Thanks for all the great advice guys! (and maybe girls?)
I tried putting a few more primers in the FC brass, i removed more of the crimp, so it looked a lot like a commercial remington (RP) case -- ever notice how RP brass always has more of a radius on the primer pocket than any other brand?
Anyhow, I got the same results, flush at best, but mostly high by a couple thousandths. I increased pressure on one until it was flattened and you could see the indentation of the primer foot around the edge, the un-crushed portion of the primer was still high.
So I reached in the brass bag and pulled out some LC(+) brass, prepped 10, 8 of which were too long, and then inserted three primers a couple thousandths *below* flush. I don't have a depth gauge, but under a magnifying glass, the primer disappeared before the far rim as i rotated the brass in my line of vision, just barely, but certainly. I put a very firm force on these, more so than I'd ever do with a pistol primer, and one I had to press a second time, before it was below flush.
I have no idea how anyone can get a CCI400 .004-.008 below flush in any of this brass. FC definitely has a more shallow pocket than LC.
Since I removed a *lot* of the crimp, I'm guessing the pockets are simply too shallow or my primers are too tall. Once I get my hands on a primer pocket uniformer I'll know once and for all.
thanks again!
--edfardos
I tried putting a few more primers in the FC brass, i removed more of the crimp, so it looked a lot like a commercial remington (RP) case -- ever notice how RP brass always has more of a radius on the primer pocket than any other brand?
Anyhow, I got the same results, flush at best, but mostly high by a couple thousandths. I increased pressure on one until it was flattened and you could see the indentation of the primer foot around the edge, the un-crushed portion of the primer was still high.
So I reached in the brass bag and pulled out some LC(+) brass, prepped 10, 8 of which were too long, and then inserted three primers a couple thousandths *below* flush. I don't have a depth gauge, but under a magnifying glass, the primer disappeared before the far rim as i rotated the brass in my line of vision, just barely, but certainly. I put a very firm force on these, more so than I'd ever do with a pistol primer, and one I had to press a second time, before it was below flush.
I have no idea how anyone can get a CCI400 .004-.008 below flush in any of this brass. FC definitely has a more shallow pocket than LC.
Since I removed a *lot* of the crimp, I'm guessing the pockets are simply too shallow or my primers are too tall. Once I get my hands on a primer pocket uniformer I'll know once and for all.
thanks again!
--edfardos
"Listen to what most are telling you. Look at a swager."
A swager wont uniform the bottom of the pocket as far as i can tell. Having removed the crimp with a deburr tool, I'm not sure how a swager will fix this particular issue, unless I'm missing something? Either the primers are too tall (unlikely since they effectively fit in different brass), or the bottom of the pocket is too shallow. I'm sure I'll get a swager in the long run, looks fast and easy.
thanks,
-edfardos
A swager wont uniform the bottom of the pocket as far as i can tell. Having removed the crimp with a deburr tool, I'm not sure how a swager will fix this particular issue, unless I'm missing something? Either the primers are too tall (unlikely since they effectively fit in different brass), or the bottom of the pocket is too shallow. I'm sure I'll get a swager in the long run, looks fast and easy.
thanks,
-edfardos
A Pause for the Coz
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When I first started reloading. Priming the 5.56 cases drove me nuts.
I have used the LEE auto prime, Priming on my LEE turret press and also on my LEE challenger press.
Results were not great. I fiddled with the cases, thinking that was the problem. Swapped brands of cases, purchased various tools for primer pocket conditioning.Ect ect ect.
It was not until I finally got my LEE challenger press on a good stable/ Level/ Solid mounting that my primer seating problems went away.
I now prime on that press and use a solid pressure on the handle when priming. Last night I primed 200 FC cases with out a issue. As a test I grabbed 100 of the Speer cases I stuck in a corner as useless. Primed them with out a issue.
Job one make sure that your press is mounted stable and level. You will think you have new reloading equipment.
If thats not the problem at least it will make it easier to diagnose the real problem.
I have used the LEE auto prime, Priming on my LEE turret press and also on my LEE challenger press.
Results were not great. I fiddled with the cases, thinking that was the problem. Swapped brands of cases, purchased various tools for primer pocket conditioning.Ect ect ect.
It was not until I finally got my LEE challenger press on a good stable/ Level/ Solid mounting that my primer seating problems went away.
I now prime on that press and use a solid pressure on the handle when priming. Last night I primed 200 FC cases with out a issue. As a test I grabbed 100 of the Speer cases I stuck in a corner as useless. Primed them with out a issue.
Job one make sure that your press is mounted stable and level. You will think you have new reloading equipment.
If thats not the problem at least it will make it easier to diagnose the real problem.
Nice bench! and thanks for sharing your experience. So are you saying 5.56 is generally harder to prime than other cartridges? Using your press how much force do you estimate you're putting on the end of that handle? Like I said, I was crushing (leaving a significant indentation) these small rifle primers trying to get them flush in FC brass, using a great a mount of force (almost have to stand up) on the LC brass, and as luck would have it, I found some RP brass, which primed below flush, with significant force (more force than I use for 3006, 44mag and 40S&W, but not much more).
Furthermore, I think I've been accepting of high primers until now, since I've never loaded for an automatic rifle (hard to get a slam fire in 44mag and 30'06).
Anyhow, I'm going to buy some factory ammo at the store to break in the new AR15, I'll see if I can get some Remington UMC since I can reliably prime that for now.
thanks a bunch!
-edfardos
Furthermore, I think I've been accepting of high primers until now, since I've never loaded for an automatic rifle (hard to get a slam fire in 44mag and 30'06).
Anyhow, I'm going to buy some factory ammo at the store to break in the new AR15, I'll see if I can get some Remington UMC since I can reliably prime that for now.
thanks a bunch!
-edfardos
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Yes, it will.
The swaging punch has to go in full depth in order to swage all the crimp out.
If the pockets weren't deep enough to start with, they will be after the swager punch gets done with it!
rc
I don't think I fallow. I adjust my swage where I fell it clear the crimp. Any more & you start damageing the rim. Maybe I misunderstood your post.
The pockets are deep enough. The skirt of the primer is giveing way but the top won't go past the crimp.
Send me one of your so called junk primers & I'll swage it to show you.
A Pause for the Coz
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You have to figure with military production they are going great guns as fast as they can spit them out. Over pushing worn machines.
I have found that quite a bit of the primer pockets are slightly off center and tight.
(assuming you have removed the primer crimp)
In my opinion, its not simply the amount of force. I suspect you are not getting square to the pocket with the primer. Put a level to your press. If its not level the case will tip with gravity and come slightly off center. Add to this a off center primer pocket that is tight. You end up with a squished primer.
Also I have found that some times when a stop ( not resistance) a stop when engaging the primer. Same feeling you would have if you stuck a already primed case in the holder. ( if you say you never done it your lying) If you twist the case 90 deg in the holder the primer 99% of the time will pop in.
I dont know if I can explain it. Its a feel thing you get from doing.
But I put the case in the holder. I with a light hand, contact the base of the case with the primer. I then exert med steady pressure. After a few you can feel if its tight or a stop. Then I pop the primer in.
If its a stop I twist the case 90 deg and then repeat. If its still a stop I throw that case in the recycle bin. Its not worth the aggravation.
I have found that quite a bit of the primer pockets are slightly off center and tight.
(assuming you have removed the primer crimp)
In my opinion, its not simply the amount of force. I suspect you are not getting square to the pocket with the primer. Put a level to your press. If its not level the case will tip with gravity and come slightly off center. Add to this a off center primer pocket that is tight. You end up with a squished primer.
Also I have found that some times when a stop ( not resistance) a stop when engaging the primer. Same feeling you would have if you stuck a already primed case in the holder. ( if you say you never done it your lying) If you twist the case 90 deg in the holder the primer 99% of the time will pop in.
I dont know if I can explain it. Its a feel thing you get from doing.
But I put the case in the holder. I with a light hand, contact the base of the case with the primer. I then exert med steady pressure. After a few you can feel if its tight or a stop. Then I pop the primer in.
If its a stop I twist the case 90 deg and then repeat. If its still a stop I throw that case in the recycle bin. Its not worth the aggravation.
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mmorris
Member
I have the sinclaire uniformers and my problems with primer seating are gone.
I really don't understand why uniforming the primer pocket isn't more commonly done. Considering the operations done to cases in the name of perfection, why is the solution to a primer that won't seat to get a bigger lever?
Guys I am not being a butt head but I not sure I understand a slam-fire. Has anyone had one ? The face of the bolt of an AR15 is flat, the primer seater has a flat face also. It sounds like you are saying that the the forward motion of the AR15 bolt has more force that the amount of force generated by a re-loading press. I have a old RCBS RC and Hornady LNL-AP and I gotta tell you those boys can generate some force. I am trying to learn here but please, tell me what I am missing. Also not to be rude but please leave out the what ifs and give me facts, I just can't see a slam-fire happening from a primer being a bit to high.
The Coz
PS I also use a RCBS pocket swager and is works very well.
The Coz
PS I also use a RCBS pocket swager and is works very well.
If you've ever chambered a round on an AR, and then pulled the charging handle again and ejected the unfired round, you will notice that the firing pin leaves a little mark on the primer. If you mix in a high primer, you can easily get a slamfire and it will not be pleasant.
Slam fires were my primary concern when I started this thread about high primers. I did quite a bit of searching, and while AR15's are not prone to slam fires (compared to an M4), but the probability increases if the ammo has high-primers. The free floating firing pin can and does strike the primer when a round is chambered, potentially (but unlikely) setting it off. A high primer increases this probability of a detonation. Not to mention chambering problems. What's worse is that the high primer might not allow the bolt to close and not lock, in which case a slam fire is catastrophic to the rifle and the operator.
Having looked into all that, I'll be hand-chambering each of my high-primer rounds and very slowly locking the bolt behind them with finger pressure. A slow crushing force wont set off a primer, unlike a pin with a lot of impulse power.
--edfardos
Having looked into all that, I'll be hand-chambering each of my high-primer rounds and very slowly locking the bolt behind them with finger pressure. A slow crushing force wont set off a primer, unlike a pin with a lot of impulse power.
--edfardos
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Thanks a lot guys now I understand much better about slam-fires. For some reason I was under the impression that because the firing pin goes through the bolt there was some kind of a safety thing that would not allow the firing pin to move until the bolt was locked, I guess that is not the case. The one good thing about a Hornady LNL-AP is because of the shell plate holding down the shell you can tell immediately when you have a high primer because you can not index to the next station because of the drag created by the high primer, is also tells you when your de-primer is to high and the primer did not get ejected.
Thanks again all for the info I really do appreciate it.
The Coz
PS To King, that was my point, that the press creates much more pressure but I was not understanding that the slam-fire was caused by the firing pin and not the bolt face.
Thanks again all for the info I really do appreciate it.
The Coz
PS To King, that was my point, that the press creates much more pressure but I was not understanding that the slam-fire was caused by the firing pin and not the bolt face.
sorry to resurrect this thread, but I now know why I had high primers.
The high primers were .120-.123" tall. My new box of primers is .118-.120 tall. which explains why i had to nearly flatten every primer to get it to seat. The new primers seat perfectly with minimal effort.
Net difference is .003" in primer height between one lot of CCI primers to another. Anyone know spec? The high primers were CCI400, the new primers (which are shorter) are CCI450(magnum).
so, there we have it, crappy quality control from CCI/RCBS. thanks for the help,
--edfardos
The high primers were .120-.123" tall. My new box of primers is .118-.120 tall. which explains why i had to nearly flatten every primer to get it to seat. The new primers seat perfectly with minimal effort.
Net difference is .003" in primer height between one lot of CCI primers to another. Anyone know spec? The high primers were CCI400, the new primers (which are shorter) are CCI450(magnum).
so, there we have it, crappy quality control from CCI/RCBS. thanks for the help,
--edfardos
Sport45
Member
You sure about that height? I though small rifle primers were supposed to be about .010" inches shorter than that. But I'm not where I can measure one now.
Here's a link to an old post showing SR primers at 0.109 to 0.113" tall. At .120" I'm not surprised you have high primers. I believe the spec for small rifle/pistol primer pocket depth is .118" to .120". If your primers are taller than that you should contact CCI and see about getting replacements sent to you.
Here's a link to an old post showing SR primers at 0.109 to 0.113" tall. At .120" I'm not surprised you have high primers. I believe the spec for small rifle/pistol primer pocket depth is .118" to .120". If your primers are taller than that you should contact CCI and see about getting replacements sent to you.
fwiw, I was measuring the height of the unfired primers, which have some of their guts sticking out of the cup a bit. After measuring a dozen of each lot, one lot was .003" taller on average. The range of heights was tight, with max deviation being .003" in each lot.
This page has some interesting empirical primer size observations, which I thought was interesting. In the author's experience the "magnum" primer was taller than the "standard" primer -- completely opposite results. I bet he just saw bad quality control between lots like I did.
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php
cool,
-edfardos
This page has some interesting empirical primer size observations, which I thought was interesting. In the author's experience the "magnum" primer was taller than the "standard" primer -- completely opposite results. I bet he just saw bad quality control between lots like I did.
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php
cool,
-edfardos
LiveLife
Member
The guts sticking out is the anvil which gets pressed inside the primer cup when properly seated to .004" below flush and the tip of the anvil gets set against the priming compound - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7813399#post7813399edfardos said:
ArchAngelCD
Member.
That's a great picture! How do you do that?
LiveLife
Member
ArchAngel, I took the close-up pictures with my LG smartphone (T-mobile MyTouch model) with bright set to high, zoom at 40-60% and flash turned on/off. I also use the overhead goose-neck 13W CFL on my reloading bench as the light source with white copy paper as background. I also use Olympus SP-600UZ digital camera with super macro on for some of the close-ups. If I am in a rush, I will just use the LG smartphone - I just deprimed, removed crimp, seated two primers and took pictures below with it.
I just took two FC cases and removed the military crimp with Lee chamfer tool, cleaned the primer pockets and seated CCI 400 SR primers with XR hand priming tool.
With firm two-thumb pressure, I got the primer on the left seated to .004". With extra firm pressure, I got the primer on the right seated to .006".
I also measured factory Remington, Black Hills and Federal primer depths and they were all .004"
edfardos, I measure the primer pocket/seat depth with the end of the caliper (both cases' primer pockets measured .118"). .004" below flush is often hard to see, especially with un-crimped primer pockets. Instead, I usually run my finger tip over the base of the case and you can definitely feel .004" depth as below flush. If the primer cup feels flush, chances are it is.edfardos said:
I just took two FC cases and removed the military crimp with Lee chamfer tool, cleaned the primer pockets and seated CCI 400 SR primers with XR hand priming tool.
With firm two-thumb pressure, I got the primer on the left seated to .004". With extra firm pressure, I got the primer on the right seated to .006".
I also measured factory Remington, Black Hills and Federal primer depths and they were all .004"
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ArchAngelCD
Member.
Don't you just love those Lee primer tools? They are extremely cheap and work every time! They are cheap enough to have a spare set just in case... ($3.49 & $3.79)
LiveLife
Member
How did you know? I do have spares of those two tools.
Well, I have happily used the hand chamfer tool for removing pistol military crimps but thinking about getting the one that chucks into the drill as I am doing more rifle reloading in .223/.308 and just about every range brass I pick up is crimped. But with the crimps still in place, I should be thankful that they are once-fired.
Well, I have happily used the hand chamfer tool for removing pistol military crimps but thinking about getting the one that chucks into the drill as I am doing more rifle reloading in .223/.308 and just about every range brass I pick up is crimped. But with the crimps still in place, I should be thankful that they are once-fired.
LiveLife
Member
Both of my .223 and .308 rifles are semi-auto and to prevent/minimize slam fires, I clean the primer pockets and hand prime the cases to ensure the primers are seated below flush. I have used Winchester, CCI, Tula and Wolf rifle primers and they have all seated to .004" below flush with Lee XR hand priming tool in various brand cases (LC, FC, Remington, Winchester, PMC, etc.).edfardos said:
sugarmaker
Member
In general, never shoot high primers in an AR or revolver. If they won't go down I toss them and figure out what's wrong before making more. Flush is the absolute highest a primer should be - anything above flush is trouble in waiting.
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