.223 puzzle

[foxmeadow]

I've been reloading 1x commercial brass, surplus SS109 bullets, using SB dies in a Lee Loadmaster for a couple of years. Everything works just great, runs flawlessly through my Mini14. I jsut bought a Bushmaster postban (2002) that will NOT chamber this ammo without vigorous use (abuse?) of the forward assist. Once chambered, it takes a lot of effort to eject it via the charging handle. This gun runs UMC, WWB, and Wolf ammo flawlessly, but spits on my reloads.
Any ideas?

 

[rcmodel]

It's not a puzzle.
Only a couple of things can cause it.
Not fully sizing them, or collapsing the shoulder slightly when crimping them, if you are crimping.

I have the same situation with a Colt CAR and a Mini-14.

The Ruger has slightly looser headspace, and more camming power to make them go in, then the Colt AR.

Try chambering sized cases in the AR and see if the bolt will close.
If it won't, you need to adjust your sizing die down some more.
You are not pushing the shoulder back where it belongs.

If it's crimp collapsing the shoulder, get a Lee FCD, or trim them all the same length if you crimp with your seating die.

rcmodel

 

[GearHead_1]

rc model called this one. It's got to be the full length sizing issue. The cases are being fire formed to the other weapons chamber and not being completely resized. Might be a die/chamber issue, each on opposite sides of the accepted tolerance spectrum.

 

[rodregier]

I use a separate cartridge headspace gage to confirm my resizing and loading setup. It's a more stringent standard than any specific chamber, so if it will fit in the gage then it should fit into any "proper" dimension chamber (excluding projectile/throat interaction issues).

I have a L.E. Wilson cartridge headspace gage for each cartridge chambering I load for. Midway and Sinclair International (among others) sell them for $20.50 each.

 

[foxmeadow]

Thanks, guys. I've been thinking too hard and I hurt myself. By the way, when i did cram a round into the AR chamber and then extracted it, there were longitudinal scratches on the lower 2/3 of the case. Dirt? Burrs? I can't see anything, and factory ammo doesn't get scuffed up. Assuming that it is insufficient sizing, is there anything I can do to the 1,000 rounds already loaded? Or is it now reserved for the Mini?

 

[CBS220]

rc model called this one.

Rcmodel calls all of them

 

[ClarkEMyers]

It's possible the bullets are seated too long -

First of all of couse I'd be curious what chamber is in the new rifle - be it .223 or 5.56 or combination or match - the Mini 14 has usually been chambered to use .223 or 5.56 or anything else that might be floating around - the world's greatest plinker but not much for accuracy - at least in the older variations.

Taking the SB to mean small base dies are being used - and assuming proper adjustment to size all the way down to make the small base small - then possibly the the bullets are seated too long and are being jammed into the throat.

Myself with once fired .223/5.56 brass given the variety of .223 and 5.56 and combination and match chambers around then for previously fired brass from unknown sources I do a pass through to size then measure, sample a few neck thicknesses, then trim as appropriate then chamfer and finally prime as separate operations to get good brass that I know fits before I put the once fired brass from unknown sources into my normal reloading cycle for the rifle I am going to be using with the particular lot of brass.

Given the scratches - then it's pretty clear the SB isn't SB enough and a change in procedure or in dies with careful measurement will solve the problem. It's possible something like the Lee factory crimp or the Redding small base body die which doesn't touch the neck will work with the loaded cartridges but notice that amounts to sticking a loaded cartridge into a chamber - and the risk of firing a cartridge in confinement and so sending the bullet into who knows what and the recoil doing some nasty things - at a minimum pushing the shell holder back hard and so the ram and so swinging the handle through its arc with great - that is finger breaking - strength. Same thing applies to bumping the shoulder only. Mostly it pays to have Wilson or Redding gages to check not only the cartridge case bare but also a chamber checker - for your chamber. Notice these are two different things.

 

[amlevin]

Are you trimming the cases? A long case can do exactly what you describe. Had the same issue in my CAR-15 and found that the cases were over 1.760 in length.

 

[kelbro]

I have resized loaded 223 rounds without a problem. Not recommending it, just relating my experiences. With a clear hole in the shellholder and ram, there's nothing that would set a primer off.

 

[Brillo]

I can't see how it could be possible to resize a loaded round with a shouldered case. I can't imagine how the neck would fit into the end of the die with a bullet in it without squeezing it way down in diameter, permanently deforming the bullet to an undersized condition or require so much force that the shoulder would collapse. I suspect that the bullet would fall out after the brass neck rebounded back after pulling it out of the die. I have done this to a couple of straight walled pistol rounds and the bullets fell out. It's a good way to unload a case or two if you don't mind sacrificing a bullet.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

It takes a different die

I can't see how it could be possible to resize a loaded round with a shouldered case.

True enough - with normal dies - see e.g. the ads Speer used to run knocking the Lee Factory Crimp die as liable to squeeze the bullet along with the brass such that the brass would spring back and the bullet would not. Same issues arise in bullet making where the bullet in work is always expanded at every step.

But there are dies made such that the die can be used to bump the shoulder or squeeze the base of a loaded round while the neck is not touched - e.g. some of the bushing style dies allow just leaving the bushing out - of the bushing style dies some are made to not touch the case body and obviously not touching either the neck or the body won't accomplish much of anything but others are made such that it is perfectly possible to size the body.

Notice that resizing changes the case (that's why the RCBS X-die exists) and squeezing the body without touching the neck on a loaded cartridge is liable to change the oal and more - just squeeze the base and the cartridge grows in OAL (longer and skinnier), set back the shoulder and the cartridge loses a little OAL and maybe grows a little in OD (shorter and squatter) - depending and YMMV.

I have no idea what the failure mode is, high primer and odd shell holder maybe I don't know, and it's never happened to me but firing a loaded cartridge and swinging the press lever backwards hard enough to hurt has happened.

I don't cup my hand over the ejection port on a 1911 semi-auto and I don't tumble loaded ammunition very much but people have done those and lots of other things without damage just as others have seen - and sometimes felt - the cartridge fire.

 

[rcmodel]

there were longitudinal scratches on the lower 2/3 of the case.

AR's are noted for this.

The mag feed lips scratch the cases when they come out of the mag.

Or, the locking lug cuts in the barrel extension are scratching them on the way in or out.

It's not caused by a die or sizing issue.

Your OAL length may be different then the factory loads that don't get scratched, so they rattle around in there different.

BTW: Your ammo that won't chamber in the AR are now Mini-14 fodder unless you want to pull the bullets.
There is no practical way to size them further in a standard sizing die without ruining the bullets.

rcmodel

 

[ClarkEMyers]

True enough - what happens with a SLED or otherwise feeding without the magazine?

For that matter how do the cartridges do with the action open?

What do you show in the Bushie for an OAL length?

One of the OAL length gages works better but you can approximate by dropping a bullet into the barrel with the upper removed or hinged open and measuring from the muzzle with a rod then approximating with an empty case shoved in and thumbed forward - takes three hands and you measure to the inside flash hole of the case and guess the rest or to the bolt face - not exact for so many thousands off the lands but good enough to say lots of clearance or not very much clearance at all.

Easy enough - current powder charge and OAL permitting for safety reasons - to seat a bullet a little deeper and try the fit - again maybe by hand.

 

[foxmeadow]

Thanks for the help, guys. I 'll have to do some research on bushing style dies.

rcmodel:
"The mag feed lips scratch the cases when they come out of the mag"

With Pmags? It is probably the locking lug cuts coupled with the oversize diameter...

 

[kelbro]

Sorry, should have noted that I use a Redding body die for sizing loaded cartridges. If it is just a slight sizing, the case length will not grow much. I would do a couple and make sure that they will chamber before doing the entire batch. If your case OAL is already at the limit, you could have a problem if the length increases.

 

[strat81]

without vigorous use (abuse?) of the forward assist.

As an aside, generally speaking, there's no reason for anyone to use the forward assist unless it's a life or death moment. As you discovered, it makes rounds very difficult to extract.

I had this problem with some of my reloads. In my case, some of the shoulders were crushed (flared) while crimping. I lightened up on the crimp and the problem went away.