223 Recomendations

[tkcomer]

I have a friend with a heavy barrel Savage with a 1-9 twist barrel and the Accu-trigger. He's never found a load that has shot very well out of the gun. He was blaming it on the cheap scope he put on it. I let him try some of my reloads (Sierra 69gr Matchkings with 23.8grs of Tac and CCI #41 primer) that I shoot out of my AR-15. They shot excellent, ruling out the scope. Now then, he wants me to reload for him, but I don't feel comfortable doing that. If I blow myself up, that's one thing. Don't want it to happen to him. And he doesn't want to reload for himself. He's tried different types of ammo. The last ammo he tried was the Black Hills 55gr remanufactured ammo. Does anyone have a recommendation of another factory ammo to try through this gun?

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Tkcomer...

Hey TK.... you're about 35 miles S. of me.

Maybe you could reconsider and load a few boxes for him after you've double-checked the manuals and/or help him find someone who is more willing to do it. It would be pretty difficult for any reasonably skilled reloader to blow up that Savage... especially if they load .223 for themselves.

Just a thought.

 

[skinewmexico]

I have a 223 Savage with 1-7 twist, it shoots the Black Hills 77g SMKs very well. He just needs to try some different brands.

 

[unlearned69]

My old one shot the Black Hills 68gr match BTHP very well.

 

[Nhsport]

Wall-mart. Win white box "45 gr Varmint 3600fps" They are in a 40rd box for about $17
Never shot them in a bolt gun but they have done really well in my 1/9 twist ARs so I would think they will run in a 1/9 twist bolt gun.

 

[tkcomer]

Hey Shawnee. I'm about 2 miles south of Maysville on #11. My Sierra book lists loads for the AR in Tac. They don't list it for a bolt gun. The loads for the bolt gun in other powders are less than the AR-15 This guy has another friend that has sunk about 2 grand in a 223 and has a 1-8 twist barrel and he also is having a hard time finding anything factory that shoots a decent group. My friend actually wanted me to reload for both of them. Is there a difference between the Black Hills remanufactured ammo and the new ones? I keep wondering if maybe the rifles really need a heavier bullet. I wonder if the 55 gr bullets might not be right for their guns. Mil surp is one thing, but maybe, the 55gr bullets from Black Hills are not right for their guns.

 

[Byron]

I would not reload for him.I spent many years in liability claims.I have seen mother sue a daughter. If you load for him, this will probably be opening Pandora's Box and he willl expect more different calibers.Also,what if your friend hands the loads to another person who has a poor rifle or the rifle is mishandled resulting in an injury.The liability comes back on you.Tell him you do not have a license to reload for others. Byron

 

[rangerruck]

Winchester, large white box, 45 grn varmints. standard remmy 55 grn psp, or power points.

 

[AnthonyC.]

Wow that is a pretty good price on .223 ammo, 17 bucks for 40 cartridges...I may have to check that out when I get my Encore for Christmas!

 

[270Win]

I agree - don't reload for him. The liability issues you're worried are legitimate, not to mention concern for a friend.

He can do it himself, it's not that hard.

 

[tkcomer]

Well now. I see Black Hills has a round very similar to what I load. Rumor has it they even use Tac powder behind a 69gr SMK. If they use Tac, it's a load that's hotter than what's listed in my book. My AR prefers the hotter loads with Tac. It has a 1-9 twist also. But it also shoots the 52gr SMK pretty good it they are loaded near max. But not as good as the 69gr. But even my gun didn't shoot those 55gr Black Hill rounds that well. And going by the Black Hills' website, those are some hot rounds. Hotter than anything my Sierra book shows. Could those rounds be too “hot” for a 1-9 twist barrel? Maybe a 1-12 twist barrel would be better for them?

 

[stubbicatt]

TAC has proven to be an accuate powder for me, and relatively clean burning also.

I concur with the original contributor's posting to not reload for someone else. What I've done with folks sometimes is to invite them over for dinner and set them in front of my press and let them put a few together for themselves. This has the tendency to remove their fear, instill confidence, and get them off the dime to go and buy a handloading setup for themselves. Some folks feel better to have someone lean over their shoulder at first when they engage in this sort of activity.

 

[Zeke/PA]

Often the Savage rifles come equipped with a 3x9 Simmons scope which is at best only marginal.
I have two rifles on which I replaced the Simmons with VERY noticible improvement.
Zeke

 

[Shawnee]

Hi TK...

I'm about 20+ miles N. of Ripley just a little E. of 62.

There is ample data for loading .223s for bolts but "Stubbicatt's" idea might be a good one to get your pal(s) reloading. Sure hate to see 'em take a loss on good rifles just because they don't reload.
Pesonally, since you're an experienced reloader and since a defective round would have to be proven to have come from you (difficult), I think the concern for "liability" is a bit Sky-is-Falling-ish. BUT -
- it's obviously your call and you can't get burned playing it conservative.

 

[tkcomer]

I can't remember what scope he had on it. It's a cheapie. But the gun did shoot nice groups with my reloads, ruling out some of the limitations of the scope. But it was only 10 rounds he put through it. Perked him up when he saw the gun could shoot a good group. He was pretty frustrated until he shot my reloads. No, I've told him I'll not reload for him. Just trying to find a factory load that will shoot good groups with his gun.

 

[jhansman]

My Savage 12VLP never shot any factory ammo nearly as well as it does my handloads. This is, I believe, because the optimum OAL for my gun turned out to be about 2.250, quite a bit longer than the factory spec. If your friend can get his hands on a Stoney Point (now Hornady) OAL gauge, I bet he'll find the same thing. My Savage also loves the Sierra 60g. Varminter, and won't shoot a 55g. bullet for beans.

 

[John4me05]

Ill back the walmart special Varmint load 45grs... They are awesome..
Why dont you take some time and teach him reloading.. Let him make the ammo himself on your equipment and show him the feeling of satisfaction and pride when he finds and builds a 1 holer load for his gun.. may make a loader out of him for life..
I shoot a Handi Rifle single shot .223 and mine likes either 45gr Hornady hornet tips with 18.5gr of RL7 or my new load (hard a difficult time with seating the 45s without shaving copper or damaging the tip cause i have large hands and the flat bases didnt work to well with trying to feed into my die) is 40gr Vmax with 25.5gr of Varget... Both set to COL of 2.260..
Both loads produce 1 hole groups in mine..

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Agreed with others. Do not load for other people. I don't like anyone using my loads, and I don't ever use anyone else's either. It would be like sharing a soup spoon.


Fortunately, your handloads shot great in his rifle, but for those who struggle with the same issue, here's my $0.02:


Black Hills is a proven ammo. It is capable of 1/2moa. Yes, some rifles have tastes and others are picky, but people exaggerate that on the web. In .223 there are a few "go to" loads. One of them is the 69smk in 1/9's loaded with TAC or Varget. Another would be a 52/53/55 match bullet with 335. If a rifle doesn't shoot one of the bread and butter loads - it is time to get rid of the rifle. Some of these loads have been proven to be tack-drivers for decades in tens of thousands of rifles and by thousands of competitors. The wrong way to go about it is to spend a lot of money buying factory loads or time and money making dozens of various handloads to find the magic load that the rifle finally likes. Usually doesn't happen. Don't reinvent the wheel. Nothing you or I will do with a .223 will be new or innovative. Everything has been tried and tested to death. In fact, BH and Federal have done more research and testing on this subject than we can imagine - which is how they developed their match loads which are so accurate in just about anything you feed them to. They are made to be accurate across a huge range of variables..first and foremost being different guns..

My advice is simple. If you buy a .223 and you want to see what it can do before you commit to buying other ammos or handloading. Buy a box of 69gr Federal Gold Medal Match. It's expensive, but do it. Shoot it. If it doesn't shoot well, it's the gun. Don't be one of these guys who makes endless excuses for a gun that won't shoot. When I used to say that, people would jump on me with "yeah, but my gun didn't like it but it shot .00001moa groups with X brand" ...yeah right. Maybe, but I'd like to see it myself. Let's be real here. A barrel has what characteristics that makes it shoot a proven load like that poorly, but will shoot something else into match-grade quality? BS.

The beauty of handloads is that you can tweak the load to your rifle's liking. That's IF the dang thing shoots in the first place. People think they can take a gun that shoots FGMM into 2" and make it sub-moa with handloading. Sorry, but FGMM or BlackHills is really, really good ammo. Handloading can give you up to 25% increase. That would take a 1moa load and make it .75moa. Or something that shoots 2" and put it into 1.5". That is because you can find the velocity your barrel likes, that is, the point at which the barrel is vibrating at it's highest/lowest point when the bullet leaves the muzzle. You can also seat closer to the lands. Again...all of this wins you 25% give or take.


Find a good match load like one of BH...they offer high quality match loads in a few different bullets, or Federal's 69. No need to look further. If they don't shoot - it's the gun.

 

[John4me05]

Contrary to what people believe different guns shoot different.. 2 models of the exact same caliber, manufacturer, model, and everything accesorized the exact same can perform differently with the exact same ammo.. Wether its handload or factory...
My .223 will take the snot out of Washingtons nose on a quarter at 50yds all day with my handloads.. And i could group roughly at an inch outside to outside with the Winchester Varmint ammo for the .223... But my buddys .223 (same exact Handi Rifle i use bought on the same day from the same place) didnt like the Winchester ammo or the loads i use for mine.. I can print 1 hole groups all day out of mine with my handload but his is lucky to get better than 1 inch groups with my loads but with him shooting the same 40gr Vmax tips his rifle 1 holes with 19.8gr of Varget where mine was about a 1 inch group with the same 19.8gr of Varget.. Again all factors are the same and we even shot each others guns with our respective loads to take the shooter factor out of the equation and it was the same results... A gun likes what it likes.. Like some of use are born Chevy or Ford people but can drive the one we hate and learn to like it a rifle cant learn to like anything other than what it likes.. Ill just about guarantee you that there is a load out there you can find that will print 1 hole groups or a bored out 1 hole group if you just search for it.. I have lucked into some cheap deals for guns people say are no good and inside of a week it will print 1 hole groups and they kick themselves in the arse all the way home cause they sold it for well under what they paid..
Its just like finding a wife.. Its out there you just have to find it..


And Dont Tread this isnt a kick at you or your comment.. Your post just lead me into that direction.. Nothing tword you

 

[tkcomer]

On the Black Hills website, they don't really recommend this load for the 1-9 twist barrel. Didn't say not to use it, but recommended at least a 60gr bullet. Anything under 60gr, they recommend the 1-12 twist barrel. It might be his trouble. No magic in my loads, just the heavier bullet that his gun likes. Gonna order the 69gr ammo and see what it does. Can't hurt to try.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

No offense taken.


If you had two of the exact same model rifles, say Remington 700's. One might shoot that match load sub-moa, the other into 1.5" ...that doesn't (in my opinion) show that some rifles are just picky. It shows that factory rifles are not match-grade and that some are good shooters and others are lemons because there are variations in the receiver, the headspace, the chamber, bore (rifling) and barrel, bolt face ...


To use this example or to speak of the same exact rifle/model is to assert that identical conditions can produce a variety of ammunition preferences, say a good shooting rifle vs a poor shooting rifle. I disagree because they really aren't identical, which is why they don't all shoot well. Take 5 super-match Shilen barrels and they will ALL shoot that load into sub-moa.


I won't disagree that a barrel might have a taste more for one profile bullet than another, but a known good load that performs superbly across the spectrum will shoot great in all quality rifles and factory guns made right. That's the problem with factory guns though. They aren't all made right. How sharp was the tooling when that batch was made? Was it new? Was it on the way out? Who was operating the machines those days? How much pressure was the staff under to meet a deadline? These factors make a huge difference. The custom guys don't have this problem. Their goal is to produce the best they can possibly produce. If they make a couple of lemons, their reputation is on the line. Like I said, some might shoot better than others, but the key is that it isn't likely a particular bullet is going to salvage a poor shooting rifle.


NEF's are a primo example. That is why there is massive confusion. You get reports from NEF owners who shoot sub-moa. People get excited, go out and buy one, and print 3" groups at best and go to the NEF forums and post requests for help. Then they are puzzled. Well, that's the gamble you take with a $200 rifle. They are extremely suceptable to variables during mass production. They crank them out like crazy, and for that kind of money (they do have to ship them to distributors then to dealers and still make a profit) ...there isn't much quality control involved when making the barrel.


The more money you spend, the more you decrease the chances of getting a poor shooting rifle and the more you increase the chances of having a tight shooting rifle.

 

[W.E.G.]

When they ask me if I'll "make bullets" for them, I ask them if they like cleaning gutters and mowing grass. I'll be their reloader-slave for an equal amount of time that they are willing to be my handyman-slave.

Buncha mooches.

 

[rangerruck]

I loaded up ont those winny white box 45 grainers, at Academy, at the beginning of the war; they were 9.46 a box, at the Academy's. I stopped into every Academy that i would pass by, and buy some , if I had enough money. I don't know what they are now.

 

[jpwilly]

Federal Value Pack 200rnds of 50gr Varmint HP for $57 with reloadable brass at Wal Mart shoots really good in my DPMS.

 

[asknight]

Wow that is a pretty good price on .223 ammo, 17 bucks for 40 cartridges...

:banghead: