223 velocities

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nwb01

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loaded up some 223 ammo and ran through a chronograph with surprising results.

Recipe: Lake city brass loaded with 26.2 grns of H335 with a 52grn HPBT sierra. Sierra book shows this round to be about 3200fps in there test gun. I was able to get about 3560fps with great groups and no over pressure signs. This seems way hot to me, recheck charge weight and is correct.

Not real sure what to think, seems way to hot for 223. I suspected chronograph but check it against another load and was within 100Fps of what sierra stated. Does seating depth affect velocity ?

Should I be concerned with the velocity of this load ?

Thanks in advance.
 
LC brass is thicker than commercial and will usually give higher velocities at the same charge. unless sierra's manual specified military brass, i'd back off. the pressure "signs" aren't always reliable.

also, check the date on your manual. how old is it?
how do the powder mfg's numbers compare with sierra's?

it's possible that seating depth will have an effect, but probably not with a 52 g bullet. (i mean, you're probably not seating it long enough to touch the lands, as the 52 is a short bullet, and you're probably not seating it too deep either)

are you by any chance compressing the powder?
 
These rounds are loaded a bit deep but they are not compressed. I hate to back off, they group so well !

Safety first!
 
Your velocity is about 350/400 fps faster then I note in the newer Hornady Sierra and Speer books. Sierra and Hornadys new manuals show a max load of 25.2 and 25.0gr as max with 52 gr bullets, a grain lighter then your load. I would double check the powder charge and make sure your measure didn`t drift from it`s setting. Velocity is related to pressure and you seem to be in a questionable range.
 
I'd suspect an overly optimistic chronograph... take some match (Eley if you can find them) .22 LR rounds and clock them... should be running right under the speed of sound or thereabouts (1000-1100fps or so). If your chrono puts them as running high...

Alternately, shoot the rounds at 100yds, for a zero, and then run the numbers for the B.C. of your bullet at that speed and shoot it at a target at a longer distance, preferably 300-400yds or more if you can. See if the bullet drop matches up w/ the projected, w/i an inch or so. If not... again, I'd suspect the chronograph.

YMMV,

Monte
 
What's your barrel length?

I suspect your chrono readings, too. I use a similar load but get lower velocities. I'm running:

-Win brass (which should be thinner, therefore lower velocity)
-26 gr. H335 (almost identical powder charge)
-45 gr. Sierra (?) bullet--lighter bullet should give higher velocity.

The above works out to about 3,200fps in my NEF with 24" barrel.
 
there have been a number of articles in Handloader magazine about pressure signs and velocity. Remember, this is the place that Ken Waters first published all the stuff about pressure testing and case head expansion

Waters stuff has been pretty much totally debunked. There are no such things as "reliable pressure signs"...unless the barrel/action self destructing into tiny pieces is considered a pressure sign

too dependent on the particular firearm/barrel/chamber/firing pin/headspace relationship to be useful

I'd find someone else that has a chrono and check against theirs. If yours is accurate, I'd back off real quick. Velocity only comes from one source..pressure. Excessive velocity = excessive pressure HTH
 
I triple checked my scale as well as my charges and they are all correct, 26.2 grains.

I found something very interesting...

Hodgdon book shows max load of H335on a 53 grn bullet to be 26.0grns with a estimated velocity of 3300fps.

Sierra book shows H335 on a 52grn to be 27.6grn with estimated velocity to be 3400fps. My load 52 grn with 26.2 grns of powder has estimated velocity of 3200fps.

Hornady book shows with 52 grn bullet max charge with H335 to be 25.4 grns with estimated velocity of 3200fps.

HMMMMMM..........how interesting. I understand there are alot of variables with this but which one do you believe. I am thinking the chrony is giving a bogus number, but I am still not 100% sure.

anybody got another chrony I can compare with ??
 
Like I said... go get some rimfire match ammo and shoot it thru the chrono and see what it says. Alternately, find someone local to you to check it out by putting them end to end and shooting over both at once... the back one might be slightly lower, but not much. I recently did this w/ a friend's chrono; we both have identical CED Millenium chrono's. One unit is about 24fps off of the other, but otherwise they both read w/i about 2 fps of each other from shot to shot. For 99.9% of the shooting that I do, even that 24fps isn't enough to worry about. For my Long Range Prone stuff it might put me off one click, if that. I can live with that, for sure!

Monte
 
The load looks fine, but the velocity is way high, which means that, at least in your rifle with your components, the pressure is way high. The best use of a chrono, IMHO, is to know when to stop (i.e., when your velocity equals the book max load velocity for that set of components, regardless of your charge weight).
 
HMMMMMM..........how interesting. I understand there are alot of variables with this but which one do you believe
Click to expand...
Each manual might use a different test weapon such as a 20" vs 24" barrel with different twist rate.

That's why we start on the low end and work our way up using a chrono for not only speed but consistency in loads.
 
MAnuals can be way off sometimes. Case in point, I loaded some Barnes TSX 100 gr. BT in my .25-06. MV was supposed to be 3250 FPS, but actual was 3584 FPS. No flattened primers, so I ran with it. Of course, I am only shooting 6-7 rounds of this per year (6 to check sighting, 1 more if I see my animal :D ).

For .223, I stick with 40 gr. V-maxes. BUt H-335 is a hot powder. My 30.0 grain compressed loads average 3860 FPS from a 24" Howa. Win primers sometimes cratered or even peirced, but the problem disappeared with Remington and CCI primers. Hear no evil, see no evil, right? :uhoh:
 
Some loads that do not flatten, crater, or pierce primers are 20,000 psi over SAAMI max pressure.
Click to expand...

Certainly can be. But the way I see it, if they won't even deform a .008" thick piece of soft brass, I'm not to worried about grenading a 3/8" thick carbon steel chamber or shearing off bolt lugs. Throat erosion is another story, of course. Time will tell on that one.

FWIW, max book loads for H335 are 29.1, so 30.0 is barely over and all book loads are well within SAAMI spec. I never go more than 5% over.
 
if they won't even deform a .008" thick piece of soft brass, I'm not to worried about grenading a 3/8" thick carbon steel chamber or shearing off bolt lugs. Throat erosion is another story, of course. Time will tell on that one. FWIW, max book loads for H335 are 29.1, so 30.0 is barely over and all book loads are well within SAAMI spec. I never go more than 5% over.
Click to expand...

Well, the brass only has to take it one time, the rifle, every time. I do know that some dangerous loads do not exhibit "brass" indicators.
+0.9 grain in a .223 could be very significant.

Be careful out there.
 
Actually, LC brass is no heavier than commercial in the .223. The .308 is another story.

I've weighed a few dozen LC 02 and LC98 brass and found them to be almost identical to Winchester in .223.
 
org beat me to correcting a popular misconception. There is no difference in thickness or weight of Lake City .223 brass and brass by major manufacturers such as Winchester, etc.
 
nwb01;

Why don't you just buy a bag of Winchester .223 brass & load the same formula & check the velocity?

I do note that the Speer #13 loads were developed in IMI brass. IMI being Israeli Military Industries if I remember correctly. I don't know how the IMI brass would compare to LC, but both being military brass - - - - ?

What platform is your .223 on? The Speer data was derived using a Ruger 77 turn-bolt gun, which would tend to produce higher velocities than an AR type platform. If your getting those speeds over your chrono with a gas-operated gun, I'd say you're running hot. Way hot.

900F
 
My faverite all time cheap load in the 223 is 27 grains of H335 with lake city Brass and a Remington 50 grain PSP and Winchester small rifle primers. It can be assembled on a Piggyback without weighing charges and shoots under an inch in my Sako pencil barrel Lightweight Hunter. I have never had any pressure problem with it. I also shot 55 grain FMJ military bullets with 26.5 grains and the same formula. I don't remember the velocities off the top of my head, but they are not fantastic. The problem is that each rifle is different. You may have a long throat and a smooth bore on your rifle. Heck, if it was a smoothbore, you might break 3700! I once had a Contender barrel in 22 Hornet that would blow primers with just about any published load. It shot factory ammo OK but I would have to reduce most published loads by 2 grains of powder (20% in Hornet). On the other hand I have a load that will push a 69 grain Seirra boat tail 3200FPS in a 26 inch barrel Remington 223 Police Sniper! I have never seen any problems with it, but it is about 3 grains over anything I have seen in print.

Just remember, years ago when Winchester developed the 458 mag it was all well and fine till it went to Africa. Once in the 120 degree heat the ammo developed too much preasure and would not work in the gun. It almost ruined the caliber for Africa as it recieved a bad reputation for reliabilty right away. Winchester jumped on it and backed off the load right away. I guess what I'm saying is that if you let your ammo sit in a hot chamber for a while, things might happen! :fire:
 
To be sure, the loads I listed above are in print. Hogdon Powder Data Manual No. 25 lists 27.5 grains of H335 for a maximum with 50 grain bullets and 27.0 grains with the 55 grain bullets. They do warn that "MAXIMUM LOADS SHOULD BE USED WITH CAUTION" but if you don't know that, you won't be reading much longer anyhow. I have other manuals that show hotter loads than that.

My HV load with the 69 grain Sierra is another matter. It is with another brand of powder and shows no pressure signs. It could be loaded hotter yet...but with sub 2" 5 shot groups at 375 yards (the length of my home range) why bother. I will not give this load out because no matter how much I warn, somebody will probibly run it through an AR and who knows what might happen. I have never tried this load in an AR but the other two loads in my first thread (below published data) work fine. They chrono right on line with military stuff out of the same AR. Of course, they should be "worked up" in any gun as I cannot control the conditions in your loads and you may not get the same results I did. Again, read above what happened to the Winchester 458 mag factory loads when subjected to the African heat. :fire:

One warning to guys new to the loading game might be "just because you see it in print does not make it safe". Years ago I decided to throw some 100 grain pinkers together for my Remington 30'06. I went to the Hornady handbook and picked out a load. It seemed a bit high, but hey...there it was. I backed it off a couple of grains and threw one together. It seemed a bit loud when I shot. Was I surprised when I looked at the fired case. The primer fell out and brass had extruded back into the ejector hole. Hottest load I have ever fired or hope to fire.

Expect the unexpected. Only load one shell at a time when working up new loads. Look in more than one manual when trying new loads. Better safe than sorry. :)
 
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