223 Vs 45 super

[schatzperson]

Hello everyone,
I do not doubt one bit that a .223 rifle has far more efficiency potential as a man stopper than a .45 ACP handgun, but recently I have come to re-consider the question of high performance 45 loads in carbine stlye guns.

A while ago while developing loads for my Thompson smg's, I found that using 200 grain semi wad cutter, hard cast bullets I could not get a 1928 A1 to cycle properly; The load that worked very well in a 1911 pistol was not strong enough to work the bolt far enough for the sear to engage in the TSMG.
While working up the load, I found that the 1928A1 can handle the 200 grain SWC bullet @ 1275 fps with no problem at all; The gun functioned flawlessly and I could barely observe a very very tiny bulge on the case.
Well, 200gr at 1275 fps (722 ft #) is well into 45 Super territory !!!
(A 230 grain load might even better this in 45 Super brass)
So my question is this:
Given the same carbine barrel length of say, 10.5 inches is there a significant shift of effectivenness between .45 Super and 223 ball ?
Disregarding weapon weight factors, will a 45 Super at these levels offer competitive stopping power to a 223 in 10 inch carbines ?

Very likely flight ballistics will favour the 223, but inside 75 yards or so, we might be looking at a differnt story.
I am in no way implying that my heavy Thompson is a better battle gun than a 223 carbine, or that it is just as accurate and handy to use. My question is purely about the terminal ballistic performance on human targets at these ranges.

 

[SimpleIsGood229]

You're re-opening the Light and Fast vs. Heavy and Slow can of worms, which as we know, can probably never be settled.

To be perfectly honest, the round you shoot better will be the one with more "stopping power."

 

[jbech123]

Given all your caveats, a good case could be made that the 45 super would be at least as effective. The real world would paint a different picture of course, but from a purely ballistic terminal performance perspective at the short ranges you are limiting it to, it would likely be quite effective.
Personally, energy being equal, I've had better luck with smaller and faster than heavy and slower, as far as effect on game animals.

 

[kentucky_smith]

I have absolutely nothing creditable to add to this thread.




Sergeant Major Basil Plumley: Seen the new rifles too, the M-16.
Lt. Colonel Hal Moore: That's supposed to be a pretty good weapon.
Sergeant Major Basil Plumley: Ahh, lotsa plastic. Feels like a BB gun to me. Believe I'm gonna stick with my pistol.

 

[schatzperson]

I guess I did ask a loaded question ! It just seems to me that when considering the light/fast vs heavy/slow debate, the issue is usually limited to pistols or fullsize rifles. I came across 45 Super loads while testing a carbine length gun (TSMG) and thought there might be valid case to consider.

Naturally I have read up counless reports about this debate and have listened to some first hand accounts from friends in the military and hunters:
What seems to emerge is that if one disregards the all important factor of bullet hit location what remains is some fairly inconsistent evidence.
The only tangible conclusion appears to be two-fold:
The first is that the fast and furious shows a tendency for unpredictability; Here you might find that the same FMJ projectile that shows some promise for barricade penetration, will sometimes come to pieces with unsatisfactory wound effects, upon contacting a soldiers webbing/carrystuff, thick hide/light bone or light brush/leaves.
The second is that a slower heaveyweight stands a better CONSISTENT chance of causing damage through penetration with fair PREDICTABILITY.
So there you have it, provided of course my observations and logic are correct !
It looks like both can be effective stoppers technically speaking.
As jbech123 said however, the real world paints a different picture: I dont think I would relish lugging a heavy Thompson if I could carry a modern 223 combat rifle. Even if the terminal ballistics are similar, the 223 shoots quicker and more accurately..........But if you are stuck with a .45 carbine then certainly 45 Super loads is mighty fine medicine inside of 100 yards.