.223 Vs. 5.56 Vs. 7.62 AK for SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situations?

[Shane333]

Regarding SHTF scenarios:

Economic collapse or earthquake are the two most likely here in Utah. Frankly, I don't see a lot of New Orleans-type behavior here. At least, not for the first few weeks.

What I do see as a possibility is a serious worldwide economic meltdown or civil war in neighboring countries south of our borders. I see it as entirely possible for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of desperate Central Americans swarming over the border in desperation for food, etc. (Already happening in some ways ) The closer you are to the border, the bigger this potential threat may be.



Anyway, going back to the original topic of 223 vs. 7.62. I'm getting both. I already have a .223 AK. It's a converted Saiga and is amazingly accurate (2 inch groups at 50 yards shooting offhand with Wolf ammo). I'm building a feed ramp so I can use converted 5.45 mags.

I'm also building a 7.62 Romanian AKM from a kit.

If I'm staying put or just strolling around my neighborhood, the 7.62 will do the job just fine. If I have to hike around at all or bug out, or if I'm facing longer ranges than 250 yards, the .223 will be preferred.

Since both rifles are AK's, training is standardized for their use.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Why would you prefer the 5.56 over the 7.62 at ranges beyond which either of them can be relied upon to deform or fragment?

The 5.56 has a flatter trajectory, but I have my AK and my SKS sighted in for 200 yards and can get consistant hits on targets out to 350 yards without too much difficulty. At 250 yards, with my zero, the bullet is within 4 to 6 inches of my POA. Holding high in the chest, that is still flat enough to be in the heart and lungs, and having a bullet with twice the mass and 35% more frontal diameter than the 5.56, I think, is an advantage in this case.

 

[eab]

The way I see it is this, 5-7 mags of 30 rounds of 7.62*39 for my AK is all I should really need. If I need more then that;
A. I am in over my head.
B. I should probably high tail it to fight another day.
C. I expended my ammo and am victorous and can loot my enemies for weapons and ammo and standarise on what they are using.

 

[Shane333]

Why would you prefer the 5.56 over the 7.62 at ranges beyond which either of them can be relied upon to deform or fragment?

The 5.56 has a flatter trajectory, but I have my AK and my SKS sighted in for 200 yards and can get consistant hits on targets out to 350 yards without too much difficulty. At 250 yards, with my zero, the bullet is within 4 to 6 inches of my POA. Holding high in the chest, that is still flat enough to be in the heart and lungs, and having a bullet with twice the mass and 35% more frontal diameter than the 5.56, I think, is an advantage in this case.

Well, frankly, my 7.62 kit isn't finished being built yet. I know what accuracy I can expect from my 5.56 AK. If my 7.62 AK is anywhere near as accurate, than your argument is absolutely valid. If the 5.56 turns out to be notably more accurate, it is definately a better choice for longer ranges simply because I'm more likely to score a hit.

 

[Tag]

a sizeable drop in global oil production and a hard winter would do the trick.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Well....a lot of good arguments are being made. But now the debate is starting to shift to long-range use. I still think the AR is best or the AK because in a SHTF, you won't need to shoot 350 meters, and if you do, they are still effective at that range. Let's not get into that mentality that they become spitballs after 200 yards. Reminds me of the mousegun bashers. Spread the notion that a .22 just bounces off of people, but no one dares to stand 20 yards out while I test the theory on them...


The best solution for a SHTF rifle and ammo combination for all ranges, uses would be a Springfield SOCOM 16 in .308. You can load 110gr loads for 2-legged vermin, or move up to heaver loads for hunting, long range work, or penetration. It's not very light though...

 

[Ligament]

Ha Ha MTMilitiaman you found me out! I'm getting lots of info all at once now.

I love seeing these threads pop up in multiple forums at the same time and knowing I am not the only one that frequents half a dozen different gun boards.

 

[BevrFevr]

Hope you are looking for a rifle AFTER you have a good shotgun

Without a doubt the most veratile and reliable survival firearm has to be the 12 gauge pump. You can turn the shells into make shift land mines to protect your flanks and rear. From flares to rock salt to slugs to pebbles the possiblities are almost as endless as your imagination.

I know it ain't what you asked about.

back on topic. Buy at least 2 aks in 7.62 and a pile of ammo. That way you can eat, sleep, and poop in shifts and both be armed.

Otherwise, you are just somebody that needs to be followed till nature calls, and then your stuff turns into somebody elses.

-bevr

as for a cause for bad things it is easy to come up with bad ones... pandemic, rapid climate change, comet, tsunami, contminated food supplies (mad cow, bird flu, CWD) that shuts down import export.

Kali falls into ocean. Oh wait that is a good thing.

 

[roscoe]

That's weird - a thread about 5.56 vs. 7.62x39 and SHTF. Those two just wouldn't seem to go together.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Without a doubt the most veratile and reliable survival firearm has to be the 12 gauge pump. You can turn the shells into make shift land mines to protect your flanks and rear. From flares to rock salt to slugs to pebbles the possiblities are almost as endless as your imagination.

I know it ain't what you asked about.

back on topic. Buy at least 2 aks in 7.62 and a pile of ammo. That way you can eat, sleep, and poop in shifts and both be armed.

Otherwise, you are just somebody that needs to be followed till nature calls, and then your stuff turns into somebody elses.

-bevr

as for a cause for bad things it is easy to come up with bad ones... pandemic, rapid climate change, comet, tsunami, contminated food supplies (mad cow, bird flu, CWD) that shuts down import export.

Kali falls into ocean. Oh wait that is a good thing.

Yeah, you can throw a lot of different ammunition types into a shotgun, but the roles it can fullfill are still pretty limited, and I don't consider the shotgun very versitile because of this. A smoothbore even with slugs and good sights isn't much good past 100 yards, certainly not on par with even a reliatively inaccurate intermediate rifle like the AK. So no matter what you stuff into your shotgun, you are still limited in range and thus, in utility. Even a relatively inexperienced rifleman can engage you from well beyond your effective range and keep you pinned down and defenseless. With a rifle you are more limited in ammunition choices--non-expanding FMJ, SPs, HPs, some match loads, and maybe some more obscure designs like flat point or RN, but this allows you to do anything you should need to do--penetrate barriers, control penetration through expansion, ect. And because the rifle is more accurate and effective to a longer range, I feel it is more useful. I have a shotgun but it sees very little use because basically the only thing it can do that a rifle can't do better is wingshoot. If there was a crisis that required me to pick armament to protect myself in a wide variety of conditions, I would skip the shotgun entirely and not miss it. I guess I am a rifleman at heart because I will always pick a rifle before anything else if given a choice.

 

[Crosshair]

+1 MTMilitiaman, Unless I am being attacked by geese with diarrhea I'll take the rifle.

 

[BevrFevr]

the forum ate my post again

ugh!

 

[MechAg94]

The best solution for a SHTF rifle and ammo combination for all ranges, uses would be a Springfield SOCOM 16 in .308. You can load 110gr loads for 2-legged vermin, or move up to heaver loads for hunting, long range work, or penetration. It's not very light though...

Doesn't the .308 lose some longer ranged effectiveness out of the 16" barrel? I have a standard M1A that I would love to use, but the weight would prevent me from using it unless I was bugging in or driving.

I was loading some new magazines yesterday. I have 5-30 round AR mags and 4-30 round steel AK 7.62 mags. The 5 AR mags were still lighter than the AK mags fully loaded. If I was on foot, I think my Armalite would be my first choice.

 

[student]

In my humble opinion the .223 AK in the USA is a good idea, but flawed in availability of cheap mags and a lack of design tweaking. The 5.45 AK also seems like a good idea but ammo availability is likely worse than 7.62. I am glad my AK is a 7.62 for those reasons. A folding stock SAR-1 was my BOB and SHTF rifle, but I realized with ammo and mags and weapon it was too heavy for my tastes. I compromised and went with the less weighty stainless .223 mini-14 with a folding stock and several reliable factory or promag mags. Mixed with a 5.5" stainless bull barrel 22/45 and a glock 27 I have my travelling combo that can go everywhere with me. I still have and love the AK, but it would go with me only on vehicle bug outs. Basically I am planning for survival and not battle, but if the need arises...

 

[colt.45]

the best gun in this situation is the one your holding.

an m-1 carbine would be a good choice. light as heck and a full mag is like 4 oz.

as far as .223 fragmenting goes, ss-109 will freliably fragment out to 400 yards and even after that the bullets still yaw and break up a little bit.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Actually, colt, both the M193 and the M855 "Green Tip" require about 2700 fps to reliably fragment in ballistic geletin. From an M4, you reach this velocity at ~100 yards, and from an M16, around ~150 yards. Fragmentation is far less predictable in living tissue, but I have seen a Win M193 clone fail to fragment through 3 feet of tissue at 40 yards. If you happen to like the 5.56, that is fine, but you shouldn't hold any misconceptions as to its capabilties.

 

[Lindenberger]

What is

Hello All, I am looking into buying one AK for SHTF/TEOTWAKI situations

What is TEOTWAKI? Let me guess--The End of Time (How'm I doin' so far?)--but what's WAKI?

 

[Solo]

The End Of The World As we Know It.

 

[Lindenberger]

TEOTWAKI

The End Of The World As we Know It.

Thanks, Solo.