Ideal SHTF/TEOTWAWKI AK Caliber: .223 Vs. 7.62x39 Vs. 5.45x39 Vs. .308?

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Hi All,

I have decided on the AK design as my SHTF/TEOTWAWKI rifle. Now I need to decide on a caliber.

Terrain: Suburban/Semi-Urban environment with multiple small hills and trees, shots over 100-150 yards highly unlikely. No plains or significant flatlands. Fours seasons.

Here are my needs:
1. Defense
2. Taking game the size of whitetails or smaller

Which caliber would you recommend? .223 Vs. 7.62x39 Vs. 5.45x39 Vs. .308? I am leaning towards 7.62 with .223 in a close second place...

thanks!
 
Under 200 yards it isnt even a contest. 7.62x39 packs a big punch and is more than accurate enough at those ranges. Wolf 154gr SP works fine for game and human malefactors.

308 is hands-down a much stronger round, but you cant carry as much and recoil will be bigger. I imagine someone makes a SP 308 that feeds OK in an autoloader. Your preference about what is more important really.
 
I like the 5.56x45 round for a SD carbine. However, for a serious AK, I'd go with 7.62x39 round. For one, it's radically tapered to improve feeding and extraction. Also the 7.62x39 AK mags are probably one of the most durable and reliable rifle magazines you'll find. They are also cheap so you can stock up on a lot of them.

Most folks choose the AK for it's reliabilty virtues. Stack the deck in your favor.
 
7.62x39

In an AK, 7.62X39 for your stated needs. You can get the ammo in sealed tin cans for long term SHTF storage, too. In my opinion, both .223 and 5.45x39 are wounders for deer sized game and two legged targets (Yes, I know that lots of both have been killed with both rounds, but the .30 cals make bigger holes and do a better job.) I'm very partial to the .308, but the 7.62x39 and the AK were made to go together, the ammo is cheaper, and the recoil will be much more managable.
 
I prefer .308 for my situation, but for yours I will agree with everyone else: Get the 7.62x39, and stock lots of ammo. It will do anything you need to do within the ranges you specified.

I.G.B.
 
Sounds like a big tactical error, to me.

If the subsonic 22lr can't handle way over half of your shtf shooting, you are going at things all wrong, and no caliber or amount of shooting will make up for your bad tactics. The safest thing, by far, is to remain undetected by your enemies. It's rather hard to do that if you use an AK on every rabbit or dog that you see.
 
Agree with Assegai.
John Taylor ("Pondoro") said, "I would happily undertake to walk thru from Cape Town to Cairo armed with nothing but a scope sighted .22 Rim Fire and a powerful handgun, and I am quite confident I would not go hungry."
If one of the military weapons to guard your base of operations makes you feel better, anything named will do well enough. You can then die a hero.
 
assegai said:
If the subsonic 22lr can't handle way over half of your shtf shooting, you are going at things all wrong, and no caliber or amount of shooting will make up for your bad tactics. The safest thing, by far, is to remain undetected by your enemies. It's rather hard to do that if you use an AK on every rabbit or dog that you see.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree, I already have a 22lr rifle. Need a larger caliber. for the "other half" of shtf shooting.
 
7.62x39. .223 and 5.45x39 aren't really powerful enough for deer, but 7.62x39 is above the 1000 ft-lb rule-of-thumb out to 125 yards or so.

If you prefer .308, I'd suggest a FAL rather than an AK derivative, but they're bigger.
 
Saiga 308

Nuff said. More accurate than the 7.62x39 and more punch and distance than any of the others. and still in an AK package


steve:rolleyes:
 
Weapon selection is generally situation specific and what works well for me might not be best for you. Given the criteria you list I'd go with the 7.62X39. More than enough punch for your needs at ranges <200 yards. I love the .308 but it will have a lot more recoil, more weight, and lower ammo capacity (on a carry basis) than the 7.62X39.

The .223 is also a great round and the argument could be made that at your intended distances you could take full advantage of the fragmentation effect from mil spec ammo. It will also allow you to carry a large amount of ammo so I think this could be a close runner up and wouldn't be a bad first choice.

I'd avoid the 5.45 for a EOTWAWKI rifle. You want a caliber you can find in any wal mart or sporting goods department and that means .223, 7.62X39, or .308. Same reason I've been leary of switching to a 6.8spc for my EOTW rifle. I'd never find ammo for it.
 
Me personally, 5.56mm.

Mainly because of the amount of amm that an be carried. I have a heavy barreled 16" carbine that eats everything I have fed it so far. I have complete confidence in it out to the 125yard mark (It is the distiance I shoot at the most) In the senerio you described I think it would work perfectly. All you need to do is decide to stock the right ammo. Get a good supply of M-193 and Blck Hills 68gr BTHP. Those two rounds will do all you need to at 100-150 yards.

Plus it's a caliber that my wife can shoot and I have a gun that I am building specifically for her. That double the fire power. She refuses to shoot the 308's :banghead:

If the distiances increased I would have to go with the 308. I have both a carbine as well as a full sized semi auto 308's that are a dream to shoot, but damn heavy! I just couldn't carry as much ammo as I might need for a Bug Out event.
 
I love the accuracy of the ARs. I love the look and feel of the ARs. I do believe that there is a chance that the S will HTF, but I've bought these guns just for the pleasure afforded. I'm not quite sure why I like them. But SHTF planning is only one small part of why I like them.

If I was seriously ONLY concerned about SHTF I'd buy what others more knowledgable than me have recommended: an AK-47 which by all accounts is the most reliable and best combat gun ever built. But I'd rather have an AR - I like the looks, feel accuracy, build quality AND it is more than adequate for a SHTF scenario.

I have two. A RRA .223 Elite CAR A4 and a DPMS Panther Long Range 308. Both are readily available calibers and fun to shoot.

My point is, find a gun that you like first and that will meet the SHTF needs second.
 
If the SHTF, the government is just going to confiscate your AK, AR or whatever, just as soon as they discover you have it. Hurricane Katrina proves this.

So, I would propose the idea that the ideal SHTF weapon is a handgun, as it must be concealable upon your person to keep the government from taking it....
 
SHTF weapon? A big ass, hair-spray fueld, potato gun. Stuff a potato down the barrel, spray some hair spray in the end of it, close it up. Flick the flint lighter that's inserted into it, and watch the potato fly! My dad's killed squirrels with that thing at 30 yards. But hell, the potatoes will go 200 yards easy.
 
Lone_Gunman said:
If the SHTF, the government is just going to confiscate your AK, AR or whatever, just as soon as they discover you have it. Hurricane Katrina proves this.

So, I would propose the idea that the ideal SHTF weapon is a handgun, as it must be concealable upon your person to keep the government from taking it....
Click to expand...


I agree that the Govt. will confiscate your weapon upon discovery and I also agree on carrying a concealed handgun. I would keep the handgun for backup and use an AK until confiscated. One other thing to remember. It may be in the wee hours of the morning, when most of us are asleep when the S does HTF and some gnome decides on a home invasion to wake you up instead of your alarm clock. A 12 gauge wouldn't be bad to have around for up close and personal home defense, IMHO.
 
Just curious, why would you say that? Is it just because of the magazine capacity?
Click to expand...
Mainly because the FAL was designed around the .308/7.62x51, and the Kalashnikov wasn't. FALs and their magazines have been battle-tested in the crummiest environments imaginable, and that can't really be said for .308 AK's. I'm sure they are very reliable, but they make no pretense of using milspec parts, and there is no such thing as a milspec .308 AK magazine AFAIK. Ruger ran into major headaches when they tried to scale up the mini-14/mini-30 design to .308 (the ill-fated XGI), and while the Saiga's may have gotten around those snags, FAL's and milspec-grade M1A's have had their major functional components tested in the field for decades in a way that Saiga .308's really haven't.

The fact that you can't get 20-round mags for a .308 AK (AFAIK, I may be wrong) would certainly steer me toward a FAL as well, but that's not really what I was thinking of.
 
Mainly because the FAL was designed around the .308/7.62x51, and the Kalashnikov wasn't.
Click to expand...
I dunno if this is a fair statement. If I recall correctly, the SVD was introduced in the early sixties shortly after the upgrade of the AK to AKM, and (as far as it's been explained to me) it's simplistically an elongated AK action set up to use the 7.62x54R round in support of a sniper/DM role.
 
Actually, the true SVD action is significantly different from the AK action, though it outwardly looks similar. Some nations did adopt long AK actions for sniper rifles, though (Romania, for example).
 
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