.22lr Accuracy shooting, HV versus subsonics.

[DasFriek]

Im one of those guys who jump in with both feet and forget to look where im jumping sometimes. So i thought i better ask this now and not find out on my own.

I plan to buy a .22lr bolt action in a week or so.
I own a Savage 93BTV .17HMR which shoots like a laser until some weird batch of Hornady today that was not so good. But thats besides the point.
This is the gun that sold me on bolt actions. I always felt before it was a waste of time to load a round myself when a semi auto could do it faster and unload a clip in seconds. Well ive grown up and wised up.

Ive been accuracy shooting a S&W 15/22 .22lr AR clone.
This gun is amazingly accurate with high end ammo. S&W says it has a Match barrel and im told its made by Thompson Contender.
But put high velocity ammo in it and you may as well be patterning a 12 gauge.
I shot it today off sandbags for the first time, And with Aguila Match Rifle subsonics i was shooting 3 shot groups at 50 yards that you can cover with a dime.
HV shots off the bags was lucky to hold 2" groups.
I cant say ive shot much high end HV ammo threw it, Mostly bulk.
I did try a couple types of 30gr 1700fps stuff and that was miserable.

The questions:
When i buy the bolt action. Will decent HV stuff like CCI shoot good groups?
How about the bulk HV stuff? Mainly Federal stuff walmart sells, But i can buy many other types also.
Id like to find a cheap HV bulk ammo that is pretty accurate, Will a bolt action help do that?

Or will it be like my 15/22 and only shoot good groups with subsonic mid to high end ammo?
It would be nice to shoot some cheap ammo and at least get a 1" group.

Or will i be just buying a gun that shoots even better groups with subsonic Match ammo but still is inconsistant with cheaper or mid range HV ammo?

 

[benzy2]

I have found both my savage aNd my cz rimfires really do well with federal champion, which is cheap hv stuff. Not match results but very good for the price. I have a hard time convincing myself to buy better ammo.

 

[DasFriek]

What do you call "very good" results if you had to guess a group size?
Id call very good a 1" group at 50 yards.
2" group with HV id call average for a semi auto.

Im not gonna be doing any competition shooting, But its all about satisfaction at the end of the day.

BTW its between Savage and CZ as to which rifle i buy also, Its a tough choice but money may decide it for me.

 

[Smith357]

In a nutshell, the reason standard velocity and sub sonic .22lr shoots better groups is that the bullet does not get buffeted by the transonic barrier as its velocity drops below the speed of sound.

 

[DasFriek]

In a nutshell, the reason standard velocity and sub sonic .22lr shoots better groups is that the bullet does not get buffeted by the transonic barrier as its velocity drops below the speed of sound.

I can honestly say i did know that, But just learned it recently.
But i guess my main question is, Can a bolt action make the HV more accurate over a semi auto?

As stated my 15/22 on sandbags and great Match ammo can shoot 3 shot groups at 50 yards a dime can cover. If thats the case will a Bolt action only be able to handle the HV ammo the exact same way my 15/22 does? Or does it handle it differently?

Im guessing here, But id guess every gun will handle HV ammo differently. Even if it shoots Match ammo accurately the same. Is that the case?

My 15/22 is night and day different between Match ammo and HV ammo.
Going from almost 1/2" groups with SS and 2" groups with HV.

Will i be taking a chance a bolt action will do better with HV, Or most likley it will shoot the same as what i already have since its proven its very accurate with Match ammo?

Am i making sense? I do at times have trouble converting thoughts into written words online and just confuse people in the process.


I know im trying to put lipstick on a pig, But if it saves money on ammo and can come down too 1" groups with HV ammo bulk or mid priced stuff id be happy.

 

[halfded]

+1 on the Federal Champion, I think its called lightning now though. Same stuff, different box. It's $1.47 at walmart and I rave about it every chance I get. Haven't found a .22 yet that didn't shoot well with that stuff.

 

[Smith357]

Can a bolt action make the HV more accurate over a semi auto?

While there are some extremely accurate 10/22s out there, and the Thompson Center R55 is a superb out of the box semi, bolt action rifles are the ones that win Olympic Gold and BR50 matches. But if you are in that class you are not using HV ammo. HV ammo really gives you nothing and is a marketing gimmick geared towards hunters. There is nothing a little extra fps gives me that can't be overcome with a well placed shot.

My Kimber Hunter can easily drop 5 shots into a dime sized group at 50 yards using cheap CCI or Federal 714 standard velocity. If I spent the extra money and buy the $20 a box Eley Tenex the rifle will shoot bugholes but I only do that when I shooting for cash against heavy target rifles. If I run HV groups my open up to about 1.5 - 2 inch patterns, that is a miss on a squirrels head and completely unacceptable performance to me.

 

[benzy2]

I shoot my rimfires more at 25 yards than 50 yardes. At 25 I am getting groups from 1/4" to 1/2" with most around 3/8". Not match results but for ammo under $15/500 I can't complain. I have to spend 4 times that for groups to shrink from there.

 

[cougar1717]

To answer the OP - In a broad view, match ammo should group better than bulk subsonic, which should group better than bulk/HV ammo. This is generally true, but there are exceptions.
Secondly, all bolt action guns cannot be grouped together to make any decisive statement about whether any bolt action gun will shoot a closer group than your semi-auto. Generally, bolt actions are more accurate than semi-autos, but it depends on the firearm.
Thirdly, it takes a lot of experimentation to put the two together. Just because someone shoots their CZ with tenex ammo in a .30" group doesn't mean that every CZ using tenex ammo is capable of shooting that group. Some guns may prefer another ammo. Some guns may never shoot that group with any ammo. And some guns have a loose screw behind the trigger that prevents good groups but blames the rifle or the ammo.

 

[GIJOEL]

I own both a S&W 15-22 and a CZ 452 american. The 15-22 is much more pickey about ammo, cheap ammo shoots ok, mid range a little better and so on. My CZ on the other hand shoots under an inch at 100 yards with CCI mini mags or velocitors, bulk HV seems to shoot right at and inch and change and match standard velocity groups 1/2- 3/4 depending on brand and how much coffee i've had. Personally, for the money I run more CCI HV through the CZ then anything else, the 15-22 gets bulk federal unless i'm out for critters, then it gets CCI.

 

[DasFriek]

Lots of good answers to think about and ponder.
BTW my 15/22 with the Aguila Match Rifle i been using can compete with a few bolt actions from what i been seeing, But not consistently. Sometimes i get a dime group sometimes a quarter and the rest are 1" 3 shot groups.

I have another thread here about "lite and heavy barrel differences" in bench guns. While my 15/22 "Can" be great, It also can be "Average" alot also.
This is why im looking for another Bolt action to take the 15/22's place on accuracy shooting.
The 15/22 is pretty darn inaccurate with HV ammo, 2" is a good group at 50 yards. Its almost like i switch guns when i switch ammo.

Im contemplating selling/trading the 15/22 for a bolt action as it should be great with Subsonic but im worried about how it will shoot HV bulk stuff as i cant afford to shoot Match ammo all day long.
Even tho a bolt action and a 5 or 10 round clip really slows things down.

The problem is finding cheap bulk subsonic ammo, Maybe even standard velocity would be fine. I seen a brick of CCI SV LR at Dick's for $24.99 which is darn cheap. But beyond that im stuck ordering online for ammo, But i always forget gas to the store can cost just as much as the shipping so i should start doing that more.

Now i have decisions even further to make besides the ones in the other thread. Its possible if i start buying cheapish to mid grade subsonic ammo online and look as shipping as saved gas i in theory could get bulk ammo prices with close to Match ammo results.

But if thats true, That would eliminate the need for me to buy a Bolt action and i could live with my 15/22 as im perfectly happy with its 50 yard groups with Match ammo. Its it performance with cheap ammo i cant stand.

But I do want a Bolt action as like most of us here we just like guns. Its very possible it could do well even with Walmart bulk HV ammo and stay around 1" at 50 yards and beat my 15/22 with Match ammo.

Lotta thinking going on the next few days.

 

[Uncle Mike]

There is nothing a little extra fps gives me that can't be overcome with a well placed shot.

Well, there it is.....

Accuracy with 22's is 90% ammo, and 10% firearm. I have some old war dog 22's that I scrubbed the bores with steel wool to get the rust out of them that will manage 3/4" at 50y, with Eley ammo. Got several old Romanian 22 military trainers that will do a bit better with the good ammo..... shoot, some of those old Romanian's will do a half inch at 50y with Eley and only give up a little in accuracy with Winchester Bulk.

It almost makes you wonder why you dumped all that cash into the Anschutz and 40X rifles.

 

[JohnBT]

Why? Because they usually shoot better than 1/2" at 50 yards. Sometimes a great deal better, like 1/4" with ammo the rifle likes. Good guns are where you find them, like Finnfires, Coopers, Rem 541-S, etc.

 

[rangerruck]

there are many reasons you could be right, and just as many to be wrong.
plus 22 ammo acts in ways that no other ammo does, rimfire that is, and not even other sized rimfire- just 22 cal. and generally you could say that subsonice ammo , on paper, is more accurate than hv ammo because it goes through less changes, and less velocity drop than hv ammo, at any range.
- but all these points above , when it comes to 22 shooting, is completely academic, and without merit , until tried through your rifle.

Choose from this list I will give you; yes there are more ammos than this
out there, but from this list you should find some that shoot supernice
for you.
Plus some of these brands have about 20 diff types of ammo to choose from;
and I expect you to try them all.
Anything;
eley, aguila, golden eagle, remington orange box, or yellow box.
(all the above ammos are made by Eley, the finest 22 ammo in the world)
wolf
federal
winchester
cci. avoid cci bulk
american eagle red/black box(made by federal)
federal bulk, winchester bulk.
AVOID ALL OTHER REMINGTON AMMO, LIKE THE PLAGUE!!!

Again, some like cci have about 20 diff types of ammo; try them all.
If you cannot find a good ammo that shoots tiny groups for you, from the
list above, then you or your rifle cannot shoot!!!! good luck.

 

[CraigC]

On average, a good boltgun should be much more consistent than your 15-22. Shouldn't be a problem finding a bulk load that will group well under an inch. I expect mine to give me at least a half inch with match ammo, if not better. My recent 10/22 build cuts that in half. It will probably end up outshooting all my boltguns.

 

[woodsoup]

Try asking the folks over here...

http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/

Understand that ALL match ammo is subsonic. All the Olympic shooters use subsonic ammo. You can use the supersonic, hypervelocity ammo IF the bullet is supersonic when it leaves the barrel, and stays supersonic past the targets distance.

Bolt guns are inherently more accurate than semi-autos because there is nothing moving in the gun as the bullet leaves the chamber.

 

[Picher]

Okay here it is from a long-time .22LR shooter who has shot lots of rimfire benchrest, plinked until the cows came home, and accurized many rifles:

1. Bolt action rifles can be more accurate than other types of actions, but require a match barrel and chamber as well as very consistent and positive "ignition" system, free-floating barrel, decent bedding and ammo the rifle likes to shoot.

2. Semi-autos can be made to shoot better than a lot of bolt-actions that don't posess the traits mentioned in #1 above.

3. Both high-velocity and standard velocity ammo can shoot accurately, but high velocity ammo that has to pass through the sound barrier before hitting the target will wind-drift 1/3 more than standard velocity ammo.

4. A rifle that is too light is more difficult to shoot accurately under most circumstances than a standard sporter or heavy rifle.

5. Try all brands/types of ammo in your rifle to find what it likes. Start with the cheaper stuff and if you get acceptable accuracy, don't go to the expensive stuff.

6. The most consistently accurate cheaper ammo in my rifles has been CCI SV, SGB, and Mini-Mags. For shorter-ranges, I like Winchester Dynapoints, which used to be $12 a brick and now are at least $24. Fiocci makes some very fine-shooting ammo called Biathlon, which shoots well in all temperatures. It's a bit more expensive.

7. For expensive ammo, Lapua and Eley are said to be the best match ammo, but Eley fluctuates so much match shooters test lots to find what works best, then buy as much of that lot as they can find.

8. Just because the best ammo maker makes cheaper ammo grades, it doesn't mean that the cheaper stuff will shoot any better (or worse) in your rifle than a much less expensive brand.

9. If someone tells you his sporter shoots under half an inch at 50 yards with cheap ammo every time, make them prove it by shooting at least 5 consecutive 5-shot groups at 50 yards...witnessed!!

 

[Lorenzo Rojo]

I tried out the game of smallbore silhouette shooting for about a year. I shot with and against some fantastic marksmen. The ram silhouettes at 100 meters are just about the size of a one-pound coffee can lid. These folks routinely shot 9 out of 10 offhand. The folks I shot with overwhelmingly endorsed sub-sonic ammo, particularly lapua and eley.

 

[UpTheIrons]

I spent several years shooting competitively in 4-H in the mid to late 1980's. I got good enough to come in second in State competition two years in a row, and there weren't many points that kept me out of first place.

Nearly all of us shot bull-barrel bolt guns - I still have my Mossy 144LSB with the Lyman peep sights. It was nothing to shoot 150-200 rounds/day during competition season, and I always used standard velocity ammo.

For the silhouette part of the season, we were allowed to scope the guns, and I did rather well with the same gun. I much preferred the ram at 100 meters over the stupid turkey at 75. That little thing was HARD to hit.

After shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds, I can tell you that you are just going to have to buy a few boxes of different ammo and try them in the bolt gun (if you do buy it). The recommended brands are a good place to start.

And get this, I used to shoot tons of Remngton back then, too. There was a time when it did not suck like it does now.

Sure, HV can be fun, but I'm thinking of getting a butt-load of SV to try in my Marlin 60, just to see how well it can duplicate (if at all) my Mossy's performance. It does real well up close with HV, but I haven't tried any +100 yard shots yet, as it is still very new.

So, to answer your question - go do some fun stuff! Get in some trigger time!

 

[DasFriek]

Alot more good useful info, Thanks!

At the moment i own two .22lr guns, The S&W 15/22 semi auto and a Ruger MKIII 22/45
So unfortunately i don't have a bolt action .22 to answer the question of accuracy of HV ammo in a bolt action.
I know in my 15/22 it sucks and give 2"-3" groups consistently with 3 shot groups at 50 yards. This was tested with just a front sandbag support.

Lately ive moved to front and rear bags, But have been having too much fun to try the HV ammo like this. But i need too and will, Soon.

Ive lost count of the types of ammo ive bought and tried, But i know its close to 20 varieties both in Match, SS, HV and HV bulk.

My 15/22 is only consistent with SS ammo preferably Match, But just plain SS has consistent 1" groups.

But put HV ANYTHING in it and its like patterning a 12 gauge. How it can be so accurate and then so in accurate is astonishing to me just by switching speeds.

I think my main issue thats related to this question is i want a gun that shoots both type of ammo consistently. But afraid that even a bolt action will be inconsistent with HV ammo also.

I shot my gun today off the sandbags again with Aguila Match Rifle which my gun loves, 3 shot groups at 50 yards.
4 targets i can cover with a dime
6 i can cover with a quarter
and 10 that are at 1"

I don't mind buying the more expensive Match ammo as its $45 shipped a brick, Which is cheap for Match ammo.
But i cant plink with it all day long either, And using the cheap bulk HV ammo gives me fits when i switch to it.

Whats funny is most people at S&W forums cant get the groups im getting with Match ammo, But they come close to 1" groups with bulk HV ammo.
I don't know which is better to have, But id like a compromise of both.

 

[RSVP2RIP]

One difference that noone has mentioned yet is the lubricant used on HV and Match is different. Match ammo uses a soft grease type lube that from my experience, does not build up quickly in the bore. Standard and HV stuff has a had wax lube that helps it not pick up dirt when rolling around in pockets. In my experience, it will build up quickly in the guns bore and you may find you get a good group with only a few shots, or a few hundred depending on your guns bore, chamber, throat, etc. To make a reakl comparison, I believe you need to completely remove anything that may have built up in the bore. Use Boretech Rimfire Blend and remove all the lead from the rifling. This stuff is amazing. Then you have to shoot several groups to see how they do with and without a lube/lead buildup. I've found that consistantly, a good bolt gun will outdo anything most semi's can, mostly because the chambers can be cut shorter so you engrave the bullets into the throat, something a spring can't do reliably. Without wind my Cooper M57m can make a caliber sized C-C group with Lapua Midas+ but only 5/8" with CCI Mini Mag at 50 yards. It does like Thunderbolts and most other HV stuff as good as the CCI lines so for plinking thats what I use because it is cheap. It may just be that your gun plain doesn't like the wax and harder lead used in the HV ammo.

 

[DasFriek]

Very interesting points.
I will state i don't swab while shooting at the moment, But if i buy that bolt action i most likley will start to keep ammo testing consistent.
Ill buy a bottle of the Boretech also.
But there are so many theories on clean barrels,swabbing,never swabbing or cleaning and so on during and after shooting.

Ive been a testing recently and only swabbing with CLP after shooting and no brush. But im gonna be going back to Hoppes9 and brass brushes.
Even tho it takes a few more rounds to get the barrel "sweet" again i think its the right way to go.

I think your onto something about the harder lead. I know for a fact my gun does worse with copper plated bulk Federals, But the soft 510 Federal lead bulk packs do about the best for HV ammo.
But that lead is rather darn soft so i don't think looking for a softer lead HV round will help or even be possible. But to a point your right.

Just for reference, Here is a pic of one of my targets from todays bench session using sandbags on both ends with my stock 15/22 with 3 shot groups at 50 yards.
The orange center is exactly the size of a quarter.
Ammo is Aguila Match Rifle 40gr which my gun loves.


Not bad for a semi auto and $4 per box of 50 ammo.
But i feel a bolt action will cut those groups in half, Im looking at a Savage MKII G btw.
I dont take pics of my HV ammo targets, But you know what 2"-3" groups look like.

 

[22-rimfire]

That is not bad shooting. I really can't add much. I would keep the Smith 15/22. You can handle more than one 22 rifle and it's fun to just blast away from time to time and the Smith works well for that. Do stat shooting 5-shot groups. It definitely makes it harder to get good groups. 10-shot groups under 0.5" at 50 yds are REALLY difficult.

I agree with most of what has been said. My favorite is below. Most folks are blowing smoke if they tell you they shoot 1/2" groups consistantly with HV ammo at 50 yds.

9. If someone tells you his sporter shoots under half an inch at 50 yards with cheap ammo every time, make them prove it by shooting at least 5 consecutive 5-shot groups at 50 yards...witnessed!!

Get a new rifle and you're back to testing. There is no rush. My TC semi-auto will shoot 0.3" groups at 50 yds with moderate priced standard velocity ammunition. My best are in the 0.3" area (side to side, so actually about 0.10" groups), but usually are less than 0.5" with 5-shot groups. I get 0.75" groups with good old cheap Remington Thunderbolts (HV) at 50 yds.

Of the high velocity stuff, I would suggest you give CCI mini-mags and CCI Select a try. CCI's consistantly do very well, but I shoot a lot of Remington Thunderbolts, Golden Bullets, and Federal Lightning 510's. Some of the Federal bulk packs do just fine for regular shooting and having fun. If you have not shot the Wolf ammo (MT and ME), give it a try. And yes, give the good stuff (Tenex and so forth) a try at least to see how it does with your rifle.

 

[TooTaxed]

From my years of pistol match shooting, the most accurate loads in .38 and .45 have been the ones with just enough power to reach the paper. The higher the velocity, the payoff is less accuracy.

I love to shoot my Ruger Mark II Match pistol, with a 2X Leopold scope mounted, from rest at 100-yds. Using Federal Champion 40-gr lead ammo, when everything works right I get 3-1/2" groups. That's fun! With that low powered scope I have to use a 6" bullseye...the cross hair covers up anything smaller. Any wind opens up the groups.

36-gr HV ammo gives larger groups. Remington 40-gr Thunderbolt ammo is fairly accurate, but I expect a 2" flier about every eigth round. I've found the Federal Champion ammo to be both consistent and to be relatively inexpensive. As I'm a fun shooter, I haven't bothered to try more expensive .22 ammo, or the sub-sonic.

 

[Al LaVodka]

Tool is not correct in this case, literally. In .22 bullets and smaller, higher velocity typically translates inherently to accuracy. Above that it is usually the other way 'round. However, quality ammo is good bullets, quality metered powder, consistent ignition... QUALITY, not velocity. Buy the best ammo you can reasonably afford -- don't compare it to cheap .22's prices, compare to decent centerfire prices!
Al