260 Ackley FL Sizing Die?

[Big338]

Ok, this is my first post on this forum. I had a 260 Rem Ackley built a few months ago. The chamber was reamed using a Pacific Tool reamer and the description on the reamer diagram was "260 Rem Imp". I have been neck sizing only but after firing 5 times the brass chambers real tight now. So I tried using my Redding 260 Rem Imp 40 degree Full Length sizing die. The problem is no matter how far down I set my die in the press, the die isn't pushing the shoulders back at all and the brass still wont chamber.

My question is does anyone know what other full length die I could/should be using for this chamber? Any other ideas or suggestions welcome.

FYI - I'm using an RCBS shell holder.

Thanks

 

[NCsmitty]

Welcome to THR, Big338.

Here's some information on the 260 Rem Ackley Improved. I'm not sure if that's the chambering that you have. There may be differences in shoulder angle, and you're not using the correct die. The person who chambered the rifle should know what version and shoulder angle the reamer had ground.

http://www.6mmbr.com/260aiforming.html


NCsmitty

 

[Big338]

So my shooting buddy just gave me a good suggestion. He pointed out that redding has a competition shell holder set that has five shellholders in varying heights with increments of .002". You can increase or decrease the case to chamber headspace without adjusting the dies. The idea being that maybe a thinner shellholder will allow the case to go a little further into the FL die allowing me to actually bump the shoulders back.

Thought?

 

[rcmodel]

Yep!
That might do it if the die is close to that length range.

The alternative is to grind off the bottom of the die enough to allow it to push the shoulder back with a standard shell holder.

I have done that on several 32-20 and 38-40 dies for use with both Colt revolvers and Winchester rifles. They were not chambered near the same back in the day.
Dies are very hard, so I spin them up in a lathe and use an angle grinder to remove material.

Another alternative, and probably the best one, is to just send the die and a few fired cases back to Redding and let them sort it all out.

It appears at this point you don't even know if the shoulder angel is correct for your chamber, so Redding can take care of that if the die is the wrong one.

rc

 

[Big338]

I have the diagram of the reamer that was used for my chamber. It has a 40 degree shoulder and so does the FL die so I'm good there. I'm really starting to think that the die is very close to the shoulders and the shellholder set may do the trick.

I emailed Redding so lets see what they have to say. You are probably right, they will probably have me send them some fired cases. Not sure which one will be cheaper to try first, shellholder set or custom die? I guess I will find out once Redding gets back to me.

If anyone else out there ran into my same issue with their 260 Imp dies, please let me know how they resolved it.

Thanks

 

[steve4102]

I have a couple AI chambers and Redding dies. All of them had the same problem you described. You have a couple options, 1)Grind some material off the top of a shell holder (free), 2)Send the die back to Redding along with a few fired unsized cases and they will make it right ($5 Shipping), Purchase a set of Comp shell holders( $45). I have opted to send my dies back to Redding for my AI's, only takes a few weeks.

 

[taliv]

Very interesting. I have been shooting a 260ai since July and using the redding die too. I also have a pacific reamer print. But no problems here. I assumed they'd just not machined your die correctly until steves post.

Curious to hear their response

 

[Steve Marshall]

The shellholder set option won't work. They are designed to size brass less not more. If you can determine how much more to size, the better home remedy is to grind stock off the top of the shellholder. But unless it is only a few thou, I'd suggest you let Redding take care of it. Even they make mistakes. Any chance you have a headspace gage?

 

[JimKirk]

Steve makes a good point ...

The Redding shellholders are "size less" not "size more", they come in +.002”, +.004”. +.006”, +.008” and +.010” . To help with the OP problem, they would have to be -.002 .....-.010 to work.

I have ground the bottom of dies without any problems, just make sure they are square. Grinding shellholders doesn't work too good with the Forster CoAx press.

Jimmy K

 

[fguffey]

The first mistake: Neck sizing, you went straight to neck sizing after firing the first round of firing, to me neck sizing is cute, the next mistake is thinking a case can be sized back to the full length (minimum length) sized as in what it was before it was fired 5 times, next mistake (bad advise you received) is thinking sizing a case with a 40 degree shoulder behaves the same as sizing a case with a 17 degree 30' shoulder so....

I also think everyone should waste their money on Redding competition shell holders, tools that are nice to have but not necessary, after someone waste money on tools that are nice to have and or unnecessary it is easier to get them (a few) to think before purchasing. I size cases from .017 thousands shorter from the head of the case to it's shoulder to .014 thousands longer than a minimum length case with the standard shell holder and versatile full length sizer die, for Redding to be able to accomplish this it would require 31 shell holders, point being? before I order a shell holder thinking it was able to correct the problem I would use the companion tool to the press the feeler gage to shim the case up to increase the amount of sizing required to enable a worked hardened case to chamber.

Purchase the competition shell holder for the correct reason, not because someone says to purchase it, purchase the shell holder because you know it will correct the problem, again, I said the feeler gage will allow you to increase the amount of full length sizing. when cutting a chamber I form cases that are .021 thousands shorter than a go-gage length chamber, everyone else claims "You have to check progress often because no one knows where they are when cutting a chamber" for most when the bolt closes the chamber gets dark and the light goes out.

More bad advise, it has been suggested a reloader can grind the top of the shell holder and or bottom of the die, they refer to it as being "No biggy", my opinion, it is mindless to grind the shell holder and or die.

F. Guffey

 

[Big338]

Great feedback guys. I'm going to talk to Redding tomorrow and consider using shims. I will post the solution.

 

[JimKirk]

In this case shims are not going to help you.... you need less .... not more.

 

[fguffey]

38, Shims?? If I size cases for short chambers and chambers with .016 thousands head space and for Redding to do the same it would be required for them to make 31 shell holders. Before I purchase something that could become another tool that is useless, I make sure the tool I order is THE ONE, again I form cases for checking short chambers, the test cases are from .017 thousands shorter than a go-gage chamber or .012 thousands shorter than a minimum length case with a feeler machinist feeler gage (set), with the same set I can control the length of a case that off sets the effect of a chamber with .011 thousands longer than a go-gage chamber.

Start with a feeler gage, to increase the amount of shoulder set back place the gage of your choice between the deck of the shell holder and head of the case before raising the ram, to decrease the amount of shoulder set-back place the feeler gage of choice between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die, this method allows the full length sizer die to be used as THE VERSATILE FULL LENGTH SIZER DIE, a die that can be used as a neck sizer die, a sizer die for sizing cases for short chambers, for a die than is used to size cases to off set chambers with non Sammy chambers unless they have chambers like my chambers as in Sammys + adjustments for chambers with as much as .016 thousands head, so I suggest thinking first, I do not suggest calling Redding, they are about selling, I am for making sure you purchase the correct tool, the companion tool to the press the feeler gage (a real nice one cost +/- $11.00, the feeler gage allows me to determine head space first then form, thew feeler gage allows me to form cases that I use as test cases, transfers and standards.

Again, if I choose to grind a die and or shell holder I know to the thousands the amount required if I use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage to increase and or decrease the effect of sizing, it is like the two workers that were paid on two different scales, the one that was paid less only knew how to hammer, the one paid the most knew where to hammer.

F. Guffey

 

[Big338]

fguffey,

I hear you. When I said shim I really meant feeler gauge. I want to try putting the feeler gauge between the deck of the shell holder and head of the case just like you are describing. I really think this die is only .010 or so from bumping the shoulders back. Hopefully I can fit a .010 feeler in between the case and the shell holder.

Now I just need to find a feeler gauge set.

BTW, Redding never replied to my email today anyway.

 

[fguffey]

RCBS shell holders allow the case to float to center, I would start by removing the shell holder and install the case then start with the .005 leaf (shim) then increase the thickness of the shim until the maximum thickness is known, when sizing I would not go straight to the maximum full length sizing.

Most of my RCBS shell shoulders will allow a .011 thousands thick feeler gage to be inserted between the deck of the shell holder and head of the case, Lee will allow for a .016 gage to be inserted,

Harbor Freight sells a machinist feeler gage for $5.50 +, the gage should include all the leafs between .001 to .010, for reloading.

For most rifles the amount of case crush required to close the bolt and measured in thousands can be determined, I can check head space on a 30/06chamber with a 280 Remington case, convincing someone it can be done is the difficult part.

F. Guffey

 

[JimKirk]

Use Frank's method to find the amount your shellholder/die needs to be ground... then go get one or the other ground off ... otherwise you will have to worry with the feeler gauge/shim each time you put a case in the holder. Even if you get either a little short, you can use a machined washer to make sure the die is centered in the press. That is not a problem with my press.

In my case I would have to grind the die, because I use a Forster CoAx press which has no grindable shellholder ...so I grind the die by what ever measurement it required to make it work.

Jimmy K

 

[Big338]

OK, so I found a feeler gauge set at Sears for $6. I started with using a .005 feeler in between the shellholder and the head of the case. I full length resized and for the first time noticed that the case chambered a little easier. I moved to a .006 feeler and the case chambered nicely now. I used a Hornady LNL D400 bump gauge and a sinclair 40 degree shoulder bump gauge to measure the shoulders and sure enough, the .006 feeler allowed the FL die to bump the shoulders a full .001. That pretty much confirms that the FL die was just missing the shoulders and now I know by how much.

Redding replied to my email and said just send the die with 5 fired cases and they will fix it. May consider taking them up on their offer.

Thanks for all the feed back. Another learning experience and mystery solved.

 

[fguffey]

"My question is does anyone know what other full length die I could/should be using for this chamber? Any other ideas or suggestions welcome"

Big338, I think neck sizing is cute, I choose to use the versatile die,the die that neck sizes, partial neck size, partial full length body sizes etc., I use the (versatile) full length sizer die, I did not say I do not have other dies, I just do not use them..


Rather than go with the five firings with neck sizing, I adjust the full length sizer die to AVOID sizing, in the perfect world there is .005 thousands difference between the length of the case and length of the chamber from the head of the case to it's shoulder and from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber, between firing and sizing the difference in length equals .005 thousands case travel BETWEEN THE CASE BODY AND HEAD OF THE CASE AT THE WEB, I am a big fan of cutting down on all that case travel so I adjust the full length sizer die to reduce the amount of sizing, rather than ignore it until the case has been fired 5 times.

The difference between neck sizing and adjusting the die to limit the amount of sizing is time, an impossible concept to understand.

Again, sizing a case with a 17degree30" is different than sizing the same type case with a 40 degree shoulder, so I would caution you about grinding the die and or sending the die to Redding, they will do a great job BUT they will be setting up your die to size cases that have been fired 5 times and neck sized 4, meaning there is nothing wrong with your die, press and shell holder.

I have an in-line, angle and butt grinder, removing metal and keeping it straight only requires me to keep up with stock removal, If I were you I would ask Redding if they would remove .006 thousands from one shell holder and .008 from another with the understanding if they brake you get to keep both pieces (no warranty).

You had the rifle built. Your chamber may not have the .005 difference between the length of the chamber and length of the case mentioned above, I have no issues with any decision you make as long as your rational for doing it is not 'CAUSE'.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Big338, ask Redding if they will lower the deck height of the shell holder from .125 to .119, and if they say 'yes' then you can say something like 'while you are at it and have the equipment set-up would you add another shell holder with a deck height of .117??

F. Guffey

 

[Funshooter45]

It took me awhile to fully understand what fguffey was talking about when I first heard him rambling on about feeler gauges a year or so ago on another forum. But when I finally understood what he meant, I went out and bought a set of feeler gauges about 9 months ago. Best $6 I have spent on reloading tools so far. No more guessing about turning my sizing die "1/4 turn" or "1/2 turn" or whatever it is needed to get just the right amount of sizing to properly chamber, but not push the shoulder back too far either. ANd for one rifle I had the same problem of not getting enough sizing when the die was screwed all the way down. Simply insert the 0.007" feeler gauge underneath the case head and it's perfect. I now get the absolute perfect amount of sizing on every case with no guesswork at all.

 

[Big338]

BTW, I finally got around to addressing my FL Die issue. I desided to just take it up to my gunsmith instead of shipping it back to Redding. He took just .015 off the bottom of the die and it works perfect now. Can bump the shoulders back just enough.