$262 barrel of oil?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Lobotomy Boy

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
Messages
2,449
http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/27/news/international/pluggedin_fortune/index.htm?cnn=yes

Ready for $262/barrel oil?
Two of the world's most successful investors say oil will be in short supply in the coming months.
By Nelson Schwartz, FORTUNE senior writer
January 27, 2006: 4:40 PM EST

DAVOS, Switzerland (FORTUNE) - Be afraid. Be very afraid.

That's the message from two of the world's most successful investors on the topic of high oil prices. One of them, Hermitage Capital's Bill Browder, has outlined six scenarios that could take oil up to a downright terrifying $262 a barrel.

The other, billionaire investor George Soros, wouldn't make any specific predictions about prices. But as a legendary commodities player, it's worth paying heed to the words of the man who once took on the Bank of England -- and won. "I'm very worried about the supply-demand balance, which is very tight," Soros says.

"U.S. power and influence has declined precipitously because of Iraq and the war on terror and that creates an incentive for anyone who wants to make trouble to go ahead and make it." As an example, Soros pointed to the regime in Iran, which is heading towards a confrontation with the West over its nuclear power program and doesn't show any signs of compromising. "Iran is on a collision course and I have a difficulty seeing how such a collision can be avoided," he says.

Another emboldened troublemaker is Russian president Vladimir Putin, Soros said, citing Putin's recent decision to briefly shut the supply of natural gas to Ukraine. The only bit of optimism Soros could offer was that the next 12 months would be most dangerous in terms of any price shocks, because beginning in 2007 he predicts new oil supplies will come online.

Hermitage's Bill Browder doesn't yet have the stature of George Soros. But his $4 billion Moscow-based Hermitage fund rose 81.5 percent last year and is up a whopping 1780 percent since its inception a decade ago. A veteran of Salomon Bros. and Boston Consulting Group, the 41-year old Browder has been especially successful because of his contrarian take; for example, he continued to invest in Russia when others fled following the Kremlin's assault on Yukos.

Doomsdays 1 through 6
To come up with some likely scenarios in the event of an international crisis, his team performed what's known as a regression analysis, extrapolating the numbers from past oil shocks and then using them to calculate what might happen when the supply from an oil-producing country was cut off in six different situations. The fall of the House of Saud seems the most far-fetched of the six possibilities, and it's the one that generates that $262 a barrel.

More realistic -- and therefore more chilling -- would be the scenario where Iran declares an oil embargo a la OPEC in 1973, which Browder thinks could cause oil to double to $131 a barrel. Other outcomes include an embargo by Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez ($111 a barrel), civil war in Nigeria ($98 a barrel), unrest and violence in Algeria ($79 a barrel) and major attacks on infrastructure by the insurgency in Iraq ($88 a barrel).

Regressions analysis may be mathematical but it's an art, not a science. And some of these scenarios are quite dubious, like Venezuela shutting the spigot. (For more on Chavez and Venezuela, click here.)

Energy chiefs at the World Economic Forum in Davos downplayed the likelihood of a serious oil shortage. In a statement Friday, Shell's CEO Jeroen Van der Veer declared, "There is no reason for pessimism." OPEC Acting Secretary General Mohammed Barkindo said "OPEC will step in at any time there is a shortage in the market." But then no one in the industry, including Van der Veer, foresaw an extended run of $65 oil -- or even $55 oil -- like we've been having.

It's clear that there is very, very little wiggle room, and that most consumers, including those in the United States, have acceded so far to the new reality of $60 or even $70 oil. And as Soros points out, the White House has its hands full in Iraq and elsewhere.

Although there are long-term answers like ethanol, what's needed is a crash conservation effort in the United States. This doesn't have to be command-and-control style. Moral suasion counts for a lot, and if the president suggested staying home with family every other Sunday or otherwise cutting back on unnecessary drives, he could please the family values crowd while also changing the psychology of the oil market by showing that the U.S. government is serious about easing any potential bottlenecks.

Similarly, he could finally get the government to tighten fuel-efficiency standards and encourage both Detroit and drivers to end decades of steadily increasing gas consumption. These kinds of steps would create a little headroom until new supplies do become available or threats like Iran's current leadership or the Iraqi insurgency fade.

It's been done it before. For all the cracks about Jimmy Carter in a cardigan and his malaise speech, America did reduce its use of oil following the price shocks of the 1970s, and laid the groundwork for low energy prices in the 1980s and 1990s. But it would require spending political capital, and offending traditional White House allies, and that's something this president doesn't seem to want to do.
 
"More realistic -- and therefore more chilling -- would be the scenario where Iran declares an oil embargo a la OPEC in 1973, which Browder thinks could cause oil to double to $131 a barrel."

Least likely. They're not the only one selling oil, and the other sellers need the money. Plus, Iran and China recently signed a contract, and I doubt the Chinese would take kindly to Iran's breaking that contract.

"Other outcomes include an embargo by Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez ($111 a barrel),"

He needs the money more than most sellers.

"...civil war in Nigeria ($98 a barrel),"

From recent news articles, this is not all that unlikely. Some attacks have already been made against production facilities, and oil company employees have been evacuated.

"...unrest and violence in Algeria ($79 a barrel)..."

I plead ignorance about current affairs there.

"...and major attacks on infrastructure by the insurgency in Iraq ($88 a barrel)."

Possible, but an unknown.

Something to consider for the U.S. is the effect on all of us if gasoline goes to $4 or $5 a gallon. Buy stock in Greyhound, I guess...

Art
 
Soros has been trying to destroy the US dollar for decades. The guy is vested in the destruction of the US currency. Anything he says has to be accompanied by a cheek full of salt.

Regression analysis is nothing more than a prediction of the future based on the past. The key phraseology is "all factors remaining the same . . . ." As soon a a factor changes or another is added RA ceases to be useful. It is useful but not determinative.

Another factor is how government will respond. They will not sit on their hands. They will act in one form or another. A better way to predict the future during an oil shock would be to profile relevant leadership and foreign policies of the players.
 
Regression analysis is nothing more than a prediction of the future based on the past.

I agree that it is a bit like driving down the highway with nothing to guide you but your rear-view mirror, but like the rear-view mirror, regression analysis can be a useful tool when used properly.
 
Our society is very wasteful in energy. Just look at how many incandescent lamps are still in use, while fluorescent lamps are available, how many ACs are run when electric fans would do just as well, how much is burnt for heating when a sweater would do just fine, et cetera et cetera...

Predictions like the above are chilling, but do not take into consideration that the demand is neither constant, nor necessarily monotonically increasing.

That being said, I agree that troublemakers are enboldened by this admin's disproportionate involvement in Iraq.
 
Yes, "doomsday scenarios" about skyrocketing oil prices are frightening but sober, and largely ignored, observations about current trends in the economy should probably be more frightening.

NEW YORK, Jan 27 (Reuters) - Billionaire financier George Soros told CNBC television on Friday U.S. consumer spending would slow sharply next year as a slowdown in housing hurts purchasing power.

"There's (a) problem that I think is brewing, and that is the end of the housing boom in the United States and the ability of households to spend more than they earn because the value of their house is rising," Soros said in the interview.

"So I expect that by '07 there will be a significant decline in U.S. consumer spending and I don't see what will take its place because it's so important as a motor of the world economy," he said.
 
gc70 said:
Yes, "doomsday scenarios" about skyrocketing oil prices are frightening but sober, and largely ignored, observations about current trends in the economy should probably be more frightening.

As far as I know, Soros has a lot of his money offshored, he'd only benefit if the dollar went boom.

He also assists the UN anti-gun efforts.
 
Agreed that Soros may be short the dollar, which is why I discount his oil predictions. But Soros' predictions about the housing market are not far from some of Alan Greenspan's comments.
 
There's one ray of hope in all this.

Once oil costs go up enough, oil extraction from otherwise poor sources like shale oil become cost-effective. The US and Canada have huge shale oil reserves. Estimates I've heard say it's worth extracting once oil hits $70/$80 a barrel.

In other words, crap overseas could cause a really nasty spike but then people backing off from use due to cost tides us over for a while until alternate sources come online and we cap at around $80/barrel - ugly but survivable.

In watching technologies like solar, I think if we can just keep it together for around 10 years, we'll be OK. Maybe as little as 5.

Which might be what's driving foreign policy AND some of our enemies such as Iran. We stall because of this, they ramp up the stress for the same reason. Somebody within radical Islamofascism sees the same things, they're tracking the pace of our tech changes, reading articles on new solar tech, several of which look damned promising.

Another thing on shale oil: if prices right SLOWLY to around $80/barrel without first spiking to $150+, the Islamofascists are screwed, the US will come out OK. But with a big enough spike, the US/Western economy might crash so hard we never make it to that "neo-post-oil" era.

This might explain why the House of Saud is pumping out oil so fast, basically floating the world economy and actually screwing themselves in some ways...pump a field too quick and you end up leaving some behind permanently unextractable. But that's exactly what they're doing and it's the main reason things aren't worse. Are they buying US support during the future era when middle east oil isn't so crucial (although still damned valuable)?
 
I read two articles speculating that Iran's nuclear program is not related to weapons but is a direct response to the near term exhaustion of its oil fields. The author points out Iran has about 20 years of prime oil production left after which production will drop significantly. . . .just in time for the retirement of their baby bulge. Not really sure I buy the argument but it does serves as a welcome counter to the war drums I hear.
 
Soros has been trying to destroy the US dollar for decades.
+1
Soros hates America and is simply fear mongering. He's perhaps the biggest ($) threat worlwide to the RKBA.
 
We're quoting George Soros now. My God, it IS becoming like DU in here.....

Welcome to The High Road, an online discussion board dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership. It is the declared mission of this board to achieve and provide the highest quality of firearms discussion on the Internet, a standard set by the discussion board The Firing Line from 1998-2002.
 
I hope those of you who dismiss Soros economic and political forecasts because you dislike the guy are correct, but any half-bright business major with a pocket calculator can figure out that he's probably right on his predictions regarding the housing bubble and the effect its bursting would have on the world economy.

As for the price of oil, it also doesn't take Nostradamus to figure out that it's likely to rise to some level that is much higher than we would like. In itself this will be bad enough for our economy (even if we can extract energy from other sources). Combined with the bursting of the housing bubble, which is the engine driving much of consumer spending, it could lead to something that looks very much like economic meltdown.

I don't need George Soros (or Nostradamus) to tell me that--I can figure that out all by myself.
 
TexasSIGman said:
We're quoting George Soros now. My God, it IS becoming like DU in here.....
Hi TejasSIGman, you must be new here. Welcome to the L&P forum on THR, where we discuss, of all things, Legal and Political issues that don't always have to do with guns and have since oh... I've been a member here? :rolleyes:

To stay on topic, gas prices just spiked about $.15 around here in a day. They don't seem to be coming down anytime soon either. I wonder when the next spike will be?
 
GTSteve03 said:
Hi TejasSIGman, you must be new here. Welcome to the L&P forum on THR, where we discuss, of all things, Legal and Political issues that don't always have to do with guns and have since oh... I've been a member here? :rolleyes:


No, I'm not new, but I CAN READ. I thought it said on the front page :

Get informed on issues affecting the right to keep and bear arms and other civil rights. Coordinate activism, debate with allies and opponents. Discuss laws concerning firearm ownership, concealed carry and self-defense.


Where exactly is the tie in? Yeah, it's been going on a while. Probably too long, and it's getting old.
 
Right now there is a groundswell of conservative and moderates, people like me who did not vote for John Kerry, who are extremely upset over the direction the Bush administration has taken. We feel that they have been playing fast and loose with our Constitutional liberties, and there has been a lot of political discussion that could only be linked to guns in that the Second Amendment is one of those Constitutional liberties. This upsets us.

There has been a good deal of thought-provoking debate on both sides of the issue, but none of the opposing side's arguments have alleviated our fears. On the other hand, I've seen a number of people who started out supporting the Bush administration begin to question its dedication to the preservation of liberty.

There has also been a lot of name-calling, especially from the Bush policy supporters. This takes the form of accusing a poster of being liberal or a member of the Democratic Underground. The fact is that some of the people worrying about what we see as the Bush administration's slide into tyranny are the most conservative members of this forum.

Now they've adopted a new tactic of trying to get these threads shut down for not being gun related.

My argument is that if this discontent with the Bush administrations policies and such economic issues as the price of oil continues to grow, we will have people voting in the most radical liberal congress that we have seen since 1974 in 2006, and in 2008 we may well end up with a president who is somewhere left of Jerry Brown. If you don't think that will have an impact on our rights to keep and bear arms, you are tripping.
 
Lobotomy Boy said:
Now they've adopted a new tactic of trying to get these threads shut down for not being gun related.


No, THEY want to talk about guns. THEY go other places for political debate.

THEY know that the Internet has many forums for this kind of stuff and THEY can read that THR isn't one of them.

You find a way to bash the administration where civil rights are concerned I'll be right there debating it with you. There should be plenty of ammo there. Find places where the administration doesn't support the 2A like they claim, there are plenty of those too. Rip them a new one for the horrible immigration policies, that's civil rights and self defense related as well.

What George Soros thinks will happen to the price of oil has no tie in to civil rights or firearms, the reason I choose to be a member here.

Take Bush and the administration to task, that's always a good idea.

But if you're gonna do it here, please tie it SOMEHOW to civil rights or guns.
 
To stay on topic, gas prices just spiked about $.15 around here in a day. They don't seem to be coming down anytime soon either. I wonder when the next spike will be?

I just filled up last night for $2.09 Price here dropped about 20 cents yesterday. Was at $2.29-.39 area
 
But if you're gonna do it here, please tie it SOMEHOW to civil rights or guns.

I think that maybe you didn't read all the way to the end of my last post:

My argument is that if this discontent with the Bush administrations policies and such economic issues as the price of oil continues to grow, we will have people voting in the most radical liberal congress that we have seen since 1974 in 2006, and in 2008 we may well end up with a president who is somewhere left of Jerry Brown. If you don't think that will have an impact on our rights to keep and bear arms, you are tripping.

I'm old enough to remember Watergate, and also remember the reactionary leftists who took control of the federal government for a generation afterwards. I would prefer not to see that happen again, but I don't see any way to avoid it unless the Republican party cleans its own house and reigns in the neocons.

As for the price of oil, that is probably out of anyone's control at this point. I think the administration's ham-fisted bungling of the Iraq war probably sent us over a tipping point.
 
Lobotomy Boy said:
I think that maybe you didn't read all the way to the end of my last post:

Putting the words "civil rights" at the bottom of each post is hardly a good tie in. Do what you want, but I suspect if it keeps pushing the edge of the envelope that things will become more heavily moderated, and none of us want that.

We should be able to do it ourselves.
 
Putting the words "civil rights" at the bottom of each post is hardly a good tie in. Do what you want, but I suspect if it keeps pushing the edge of the envelope that things will become more heavily moderated, and none of us want that.

We should be able to do it ourselves.

We'll see. I suspect that should your prediction come to pass, the concern over what many of us see as a trend towards tyranny will only increase, and probably dramatically. It's already gotten to the point where I think many of us have begun to quietly stock up on ammo even more so than we normally do. I know I've become a lot more diligent about making sure all my guns are ready to go at a moment's notice.
 
Lobotomy Boy said:
We'll see. I suspect that should your prediction come to pass, the concern over what many of us see as a trend towards tyranny will only increase, and probably dramatically.

I'm not talking tyranny of the administration, I am talking tyranny of the moderators of this forum :evil:
 
You know I used to hate horses. However I may change my mind when gas gets that high. He has one horse in particular that's like a Cadillac. Never loses his cool, just smooth. I might just start riding to work.:)
 
I'm not talking tyranny of the administration, I am talking tyranny of the moderators of this forum

I'm not talking about the tyranny of the mods; I'm talking about the possible overreaction of the mods, which I believe would fuel this fear of tyranny that is growing within many of us.

I do agree that the oil thing is a bit of a stretch here, though. I posted it anyway because it is directly related to what I see as an upcoming world war. (A war that will not be Bush's fault, by the way--I've come to the conclusion that we would be at war in the Middle East whether Bush or Gore had won the election in 2000.) As we all know, a war involves guns.;)
 
In watching technologies like solar, I think if we can just keep it together for around 10 years, we'll be OK. Maybe as little as 5.
Solar is not going to a viable source of energy for us, not in ten years, not in thirty. The only reliable form of alternative energy we have, or most likely will have for quite awhile, is nuclear.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top