270 vs 308

[Kevinq6]

speaking of bullet selection, what are the intended purposes for all the grain selections?

308 can go from 120 grain to 200.

what works best for medium game like whitetail and hogs? and what would work well for larger game if the opportunity were to ever arrise?

What a bullet is for depends on the construction of the bullet and intended purpose as well as the weight. Some bullets fragment or expand a lot, creating a large hole. Other bullets are bonded and have controlled expansion so they create a smaller hole but penetrate deeper. Some bullets are solid copper and they retain all their weight and penetrate deep.

A lighter bullet will generally go faster and create more shock, but it will generally penetrate less. A heavier bullet is slower but has more mass, so it will *generally* penetrate deeper but it will create less destruction along its path.

For deer and hogs, any bullet that expands and is designed for hunting should do. Most people would recommend a 150 or 165gr bullet from what I have read. I have seen 150 and 165gr work well on deer.

For very large game people generally recommend the bonded bullets designed to break large bones and penetrate deeper, and usually a heavier bullet but it depends on bullet construction. If you do an internet search for ".308 bullet Elk" or similar you will find many discussions on which bullets are tougher.

 

[Hugger-4641]

My goto in .308 for deer is the 178Eldx. But if those aren't available, 165 Btsp Interlock, or a Sierra Game King, Accubond or Partition in 150 to 180gr would all be good choices.

 

[WisBorn]

I would recommend finding what the rifle likes. I was lucky with my 308 that it grouped 165 grain Sierra boat tails really well. A great deer load.
For elk I would hope to find a bonded bullet like the Accubond or Partitions in 180 grain.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Spike bull elk .308 Win 165 Gr Nosler Accubond, 524 yards


Big cow elk .308 Win 165 Gr Nosler Accubond, 547 yards.


Average sized cow elk .308 Win 165 Gr Nosler Accubond 572 yards.


Cow elk approx 200 yards .308 Win 165 Gr Nosler Accubond.

Anybody claiming a .308 isn’t a decent deer gun needs to head back to the range and learn to shoot. If you know your rifle and you know your drop and or take the time to build a drop chart. Then practice in all kinds of conditions from field positions the whole .270/06/.308 etc etc argument becomes null and void.

At the ranges we are talking about hunting deer in this thread, even out to 300 yards there is absolutely zero difference in killing ability on deer between a .270 and a .308. And the vast majority of hunters can not shoot well enough to notice the 1” or so difference in drop between the two at 300 yards.

 

[Smaug]

Between those two, I'd go with the .270 for its lower recoil/flatter shooting traits.

If it were me, I'd probably go .243 Win. Nice thing about deer is their big kill zones. Even bigger on Elk, but the distances tend to be longer and cancel that out. That's the only reason you'd want more power, is to make sure you have enough energy left for a humane kill at a longer distance for the elk.

You asked originally about deer though, which makes me think bigger game is a big "maybe-someday...". If that day comes, you'll be on the hunt for a new rifle. No need to factor that into THIS decision. ;-)

 

[Wolfshead]

Spike bull elk .308 Win 165 Gr Nosler Accubond, 524 yards
View attachment 1098261

Big cow elk .308 Win 165 Gr Nosler Accubond, 547 yards.
View attachment 1098259

Average sized cow elk .308 Win 165 Gr Nosler Accubond 572 yards.
View attachment 1098260

Cow elk approx 200 yards .308 Win 165 Gr Nosler Accubond.
View attachment 1098258
Anybody claiming a .308 isn’t a decent deer gun needs to head back to the range and learn to shoot. If you know your rifle and you know your drop and or take the time to build a drop chart. Then practice in all kinds of conditions from field positions the whole .270/06/.308 etc etc argument becomes null and void.

At the ranges we are talking about hunting deer in this thread, even out to 300 yards there is absolutely zero difference in killing ability on deer between a .270 and a .308. And the vast majority of hunters can not shoot well enough to notice the 1” or so difference in drop between the two at 300 yards.

Are all of these harvested with your Scout Rifles?
Just curious as my new .308 has a 20” barrel and to see that you’re using your Scouts to shoot almost 600 yds is impressive.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Are all of these harvested with your Scout Rifles?
Just curious as my new .308 has a 20” barrel and to see that you’re using your Scouts to shoot almost 600 yds is impressive.

Yep all were taken with Steyr Scouts. One of the Steyr’s is the 22” version. Two were taken with the 22” gun, two were taken with the standard 19” gun.

 

[Wolfshead]

Yep all were taken with Steyr Scouts. One of the Steyr’s is the 22” version. Two were taken with the 22” gun, two were taken with the standard 19” gun.

Thank you!
That gives me a bit of confidence with my rifle as I would only be shooting half that distance at whitetails.
Thanks for sharing!

 

[H&Hhunter]

Thank you!
That gives me a bit of confidence with my rifle as I would only be shooting half that distance at whitetails.
Thanks for sharing!

I’ve killed several dozen white tails and mule deer combined with those exact same .308 rifles. From big bodied bucks and does to yearlings. My girls have done the same at ranges from 25 yards to about 400 ish yards. I almost always get a nice silver dollar sized exit wound and a very dead deer. Unless you flub the shot you’ll have a dead deer too.

A.308 is an absolute hammer on deer at any range you can hit them at. Anybody who claims they can tell a difference between the killing ability of a.308 vs a .270 on deer sized game is hallucinating. They are both completely satisfactory deer killers. And you won’t notice a difference in trajectory at any range inside your local zip code if you’re dialing. If you’re using Kentucky hold over you shouldn’t be shooting past about 400 yards anyway and then it only starts to make a difference somewhere around 600 yards. Instead of holding 6 feet high with your .308 you’ll only have to hold about 5 feet high with your 270 with similar BC bullets.

Worrying about bullet drop or killing ability between a .270 and a .308 is an absolute waste of time. Both are fantastic deer hunting rounds.

 

[OFFGRID]

Between those two, I'd go with the .270 for its lower recoil/flatter shooting traits.

If it were me, I'd probably go .243 Win. Nice thing about deer is their big kill zones. Even bigger on Elk, but the distances tend to be longer and cancel that out. That's the only reason you'd want more power, is to make sure you have enough energy left for a humane kill at a longer distance for the elk.

You asked originally about deer though, which makes me think bigger game is a big "maybe-someday...". If that day comes, you'll be on the hunt for a new rifle. No need to factor that into THIS decision. ;-)

we have put alot of meat in the freezer with a 243 and 270. but 308 is always on the shelf when everything else is gone.

 

[mcb]

we have put alot of meat in the freezer with a 243 and 270. but 308 is always on the shelf when everything else is gone.

Not in the recent run on the ammunition market. When all the 308 (556, 9mm and 45 ACP) was a gone you could find several other more odd cartridges.

 

[Slamfire]

View attachment 1097261 View attachment 1097262 The one on the ground was shot with a 270 and the two in my PU where shot with a 30-30. Can anyone see the difference ?

I think the one on the right looks deader than the one on the left.

 

[JFrank]

I think the one on the right looks deader than the one on the left.

More deaderness

 

[H&Hhunter]

Personally I would prefer a .308 for elk. That being said, I have a friend who lives in Quebec and he has killed many Moose with his .243. I have both calibers and both have their places. Shot placement is everything, just like an arrow. I believe the .308 has more knock down which I also believe is preferable on larger animals such as an elk. I have never hunted elk with an gun, only with a bow.

I killed my first 2 or 3 elk with a Ruger 77 in .270 using cup and core 150 grain bullets. IMO the “knock down” difference is not noticeable. In fact on a critter the size of an elk you’ve got move up to a serious hammer like a .338 or .375 to start seeing a discernible difference on the effect of the bullet strike.

 

[Mogas]

For an OVERALL rifle I would take the 308 over the 270 Hands down. What I mean by "OVERALL" I have seen and have talk to people that came upon a deer up close and shot it with a 270 only to have the deer run a long distance before dying. Seems the speed of the 270 and the small exit hole (little or no expansion) may be the reason. A friend showed me where he hit a deer right in the boiler plant and the deer jumped a little and went back to feeding. He shot again, the deer ran off about 150 meters and dropped dead. Both shots were within a inch of each other and very well placed. Exit hole was hardly bigger than the entry hole. After this incident he reloaded heavier bullets and slowed the speed down some. After doing this, he never had a problem again shooting deer up close with his 270. We were both hunting on Ft. Knox, KY . at the time. Before this, he was hunting near Wenachee. Wa. where most of his shots were 100 yds or more, The 270 did not have any problem dropping a deer at longer range. In my experience (limited) my 308 loaded with 150 grain sierra game king would be effective up close and out 200 to 300 yds. The 270 was more effective at longer range by not as good as the 308 up close 50 to 75 ydrs. Since I don't shoot anything past 100-150 yrds. I would always chose a 308. Just my opinion.

 

[Mogas]

I killed my first 2 or 3 elk with a Ruger 77 in .270 using cup and core 150 grain bullets. IMO the “knock down” difference is not noticeable. In fact on a critter the size of an elk you’ve got move up to a serious hammer like a .338 or .375 to start seeing a discernible difference on the effect of the bullet strike.

Could it be that the 270 round expanded properly and expended most of it's energy inside a heavier and thicker muscled animal like a moose or elk but may not be as effective in "close range" on a much smaller a lighter muscled animal like a deer? The bullet passing through without much expansion and not using up the bullet energy inside the animal?

 

[d2wing]

I would prefer the .308 at any range. Look at a ballistic chart.

 

[Chuck R.]

I would prefer the .308 at any range. Look at a ballistic chart.

Which aspect of ballistics, and how far are we talking?

The thread stated with "deer" which matters because comparing 150s (standard deer fodder) the .270 has an advantage at least to normal hunting distances. The .308 has a short advantage with the 180s to 200 yds then the higher BC starts pulling away.



Chart from: https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/270-vs-308/

The .277 Nolser 150 grn ABLR has a BC of .591
The .308 Nosler 190 grn ABLR has a BC of .597

Based on expected MVs, the .308 will again lose out to the .270 at about 300yds.

Now IF we want to talk even longer range, all one has to do is build a .270 with a 1:8 twist and shoot the 165-170 bullets and you'd have very similar results to the 6.5PRC. As my dad used to say, "there is no replacement for displacement", the .270 simply holds more powder.

Apples to apples, my .260 shoots a higher BC bullet than my .270, but it won't start to pull away from my .270 until about 700-800 yds due to the higher MV of the .270.

 

[H&Hhunter]

And I’ll say it again, the charts above show a difference on paper. In the field, on game, these numbers are inconsequential.

 

[mcb]

And I’ll say it again, the charts above show a difference on paper. In the field, on game, these numbers are inconsequential.

Actually given how close those numbers are to each other at any given range I think the numbers show exactly what we see in the field that the target animal can't tell the difference either. Add 22LR to that table and it numbers would show exactly what we know from field work as how well it would compare to the other two. The numbers are fine it the interpretation that it not right.

 

[Chuck R.]

And I’ll say it again, the charts above show a difference on paper. In the field, on game, these numbers are inconsequential.

I agree, effect on game moot...getting a good hit..maybe not.

I really just wanted to point out the fallacy of someone saying they choose the .308 based on ballistic chart when.....the charts don't bare it out. Kinda my version of asking a poster what TGT distance equals "harvesting"

It's not until you start getting to the longer ranges that the differences start to show. Now one can argue that with an adjustable dial, MOA or MIL reticle, Kestrel etc. it still doesn't matter.

Buuut there's always the difference in drift and there's always the possibility of not having enough time to screw with all the "precision enabling" stuff. There's also the extended range added because the bullet will still be within its planned expansion velocity. The MPBR sighting still has it's fans for that reason, it's simple and quick.

As you know speed and higher BC generally make it easier to hit as the distances increase, which is probably why you don't see too many long range moose shooters using .35Whelen's.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Actually given how close those numbers are to each other at any given range I think the numbers show exactly what we see in the field that the target animal can't tell the difference either. Add 22LR to that table and it numbers would show exactly what we know from field work as how well it would compare to the other two. The numbers are fine it the interpretation that it not right.

Hunters, and especially hunters who haven’t shot game and or have only shot one type of game tend to get hung up on inconsequential numbers. I was that guy when I was a neophyte hunter.
And those inconsequential numbers have been selling guns and ammo since they first started being published in reloading manuals and magazines.
Weatherby commercialized the velocity craze. And in the days before laser range finding there was some merit to high velocity and being easier to make long distance hits with a flat trajectory.

And the Weatherby claims of hydrostatic shock were absolutely ridiculous. There was a time that guys were claiming a grazing shot to the leg with a Weatherby would cause the largest animals to fall over dead due to hydrostatic shock. Which we all know is completely false.

Now that range finders and dials or stadia lines are becoming the norm. Being able to make first round hits at a known distance is becoming much more reliable.

Caliber and velocity is giving way to precision and we are figuring out that being able to hit precisely is more important than being able to hit hard.

Of course there are limits to all things. Hitting hard precisely is a good thing. But hitting the spot beats all.

 

[d2wing]

Because at normal hunting ranges the 270 is not significantly flatter or faster with the same weight bullets.The claim is that the 270 shoots flatter and faster. Not enough to matter. Also the greater frontal area is just as important. Then there is the accuracy and stability issues with the 270 at long range. Maybe not significantly enough to matter at normal hunting ranges but I think that the 308 is better overall and looking at a ballistic chart shows that the faster flatter claim is not that much and not enough to matter. Again with the same weight bullets.

 

[Slamfire]

The chart in post #43 is widely optimistic about 270 Win velocities. I did get 3000 fps with 130's in my FN Deluxe, no apparent pressure signs at the range and no sticky extraction. Yippie! All the happeness ended when I found that the primer pockets were so expanded that primers would not stay in.

That FN Deluxe is not as accurate as the custom barrel on my M70 in 270 Win. I believe the reasons I can push bullets faster in the FN Deluxe is due to free bore, there is a lot more freebore, so the bullet skips down the tube a long ways before touching the rifling. And that induces wobble. So, if you want to push bullets even faster, use a smooth bore tube, won't be accurate, but it will be fast.

In my testing with IMR 4831, AA4350, H4350, I blow primers if my 130's are much above 2900 fps. So I keep them around 2850 fps for margin. With 150's, I am keeping my loads at 2700 fps with IMR 4831.

I can push similar weight bullets faster in the 308 Win. It is easy and not stressing to push a 150 to 2750 fps in a 308 Win, and I am sure I can exceed 130 grain 270 Win ballistics with the 130 in the 308 Win.

In theory the ballistic coefficient of the 270 Win makes it a better long range cartridge, but not with 130's. They tumble at 600 yards if you are not blowing primers.

stable at 300 yards



suspicious those wide shots were tumbling bullets



very darn certain those wild shots were the bullets tumbling




I don't know what distance my 130's started tumbling, it was after 300 yards since CMP Talladega does not have 400 or 500 yard targets. I would claim, 130 grain bullets in the 270 are probably good out to 400 yards, but I think 500 would be iffy. I am sure out to 300 yards the 130 is dynamite on game. And so would anything in the 308 Win. I shot tens of thousands of 168's in the 308 Win out to 600 yards, the 175 is even better at distance. And I have had the 168's tumble before they arrived at the 1000 yard target. The 175's were stable all the way.

 

[Chuck R.]

I don't know, but with my limited experience with two .270 Winchesters 3100 was easily attained with either IMR4831 and H4831SC and that was over 2 different chronographs.

With H4831 and either the Nosler 130BT or 130AB I get 3170FPS basically duplicating O'Conner's favorite load from my 24" Nolser M48. I've shot it out to 760yds without an issue. SAT I shot the same load out to 460yds, prone and sitting behind a tripod and it held 1.5MOA from field positions.

With my old 23.6" barreled Steyr I routinely got 3130 FPS without a problem. Shot it out to 460yds on steel and made my longest shot on a game animal a Chamois in Austria at a little over 500yds.

The majority of the Nolser max loads are over 3000 FPS with a couple breaking 3100.

https://www.nosler.com/270-winchester#OGMSBI0

Sierra lists a boat load of loads at 3100, but with a 26" tube:

http://m-b-r.co.uk/PDF/Sierra 270 Win.pdf

An article in Handloader magazine that lists a couple 130 grn loads at over 3100:

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/270-winchester-0



So while each rifle/barrel is individual, but there appears to be a lot of data supporting being able to drive a 130 grain at over 3000FPS.