2nd Amendment: For the militia, or because of the militia?

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He had to because Miller, in which the faulty logic you would have applied to the prefatory clause, was used by Roosevelt to create jurisprudence in support of the 1934 GCA. So, the only time that the faulty logic that the prefatory clause does anything, rather than expressing a sentiment, was invoked, it was used to restrict firearms ownership and set precedent for the Court.
I would rather have Miller, flawed as it was, as the basis for further elucidation of the 2nd Amendment, than Heller. Remember that Miller involved a sawed-off shotgun, and no evidence had been introduced that a sawed-off shotgun was part of the ordinary equipment of the military. If the case instead had involved a machine gun, the Court, applying its rationale, would have held that the machine gun was protected by the 2nd Amendment. (Or, being cynical, it would have found a completely different rationale to arrive at the preordained result.) In any case, Scalia, writing in Heller, completely gutted the rationale of Miller. In the long run this is not good for gun owners. Hopefully a future pro-gun Supreme Court will correct the mistakes in Heller.
 
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"Or, being cynical, it would have found a completely different rationale to arrive at the preordained result."

Miller was a set up. Read the background, how the case got to the Court, and the absurdity of "Miller's" counsel (he was dead by then) 'arguing' the case. The clause served the goal of helping the Court ratify the GCA. It was Liberal collusion.
 
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NONE of which do anything other than what I said earlier, reference a sentiment expressed.

Show me one law created based on that clause. Just one. Show me one law overturned based on that clause. Just one. The militia is established in the body of the Constitution, not the Second Amendment. And I just explained the stupidity of Miller, which was a set up between Roosevelt and a Liberal Court to juridically ratify the GCA, thereby entirely refuting your assertion.

Disregard what I said about the 4th amendment. I think you did that.

I don't think anyone is arguing the validity of a militia, I'm certainly not.

What I am arguing is the validity of an individual right. I agree there is an individual right to keep and bear arms. I support that but in some states people don't and they have passed state laws to prevent it. I wonder who passed those laws? That wouldn't be the people would it?

What you are trying to do is delegate a position to people who obviously feel differently about it than you do. That's fine if you can convince everyone to repeal the state and federal laws that obstruct RKBA, but in the end the people are just going to pass the laws they feel comfortable with. The lower courts will decide if it fits, or maybe the SC will have to decide, or maybe the state will repeal it at some point. It happens.

The constitution says one thing and the people do something else through their representatives. Those voters should be keelhauled.
 
I would rather have Miller, flawed as it was, as the basis for further elucidation of the 2nd Amendment, than Heller. Remember that Miller involved a sawed-off shotgun, and no evidence had been introduced that a sawed-off shotgun was part of the ordinary equipment of the military. If the case instead had involved a machine gun, the Court, applying its rationale, would have held that the machine gun was protected by the 2nd Amendment. (Or, being cynical, it would have found a completely different rationale to arrive at the preordained result.) In any case, Scalia, writing in Heller, completely gutted the rationale of Miller. In the long run this is not good for gun owners. Hopefully a future pro-gun Supreme Court will correct the mistakes in Heller.

I hope you realize that's akin to wishing that Dred Scott was still the law of the land re: slavery. Miller was something of a..."travesty of injustice" just doesn't quite state it strongly enough. When you ram a case involving a new, unprecedented law, impacting literally all Americans, up to a SCOTUS you were threatening to pack with sycophants should they fail to abide by your many executive abuses of power, over the attempts of the plaintiff to settle upon losing his appeal, even over his actual death in order to manufacture fresh binding precedent for a highly controversial law that still had many skeptics, and then don't even provide for a token opposing argument before the justices (let alone solicit one of the lawyers who had previously argued on behalf of Miller). Yeah, I can't see why we'd want anything besides such solid legal bedrock to base our modern federal gun control system on, either. ;) That whole case was such an obvious kangaroo-show that it's amazing we even care about the arguments that were presented, today, let alone cite them as binding.

The flawed Heller decision, by largely subverting/mooting Miller with almost entirely compelling arguments, was at least an improvement in that respect. And to be honest, all of us here know that the only real resolution to this does not lie in opinions of a century ago, but in a modern re-hearing of Miller involving "assault weapons" (or even NFA items, potentially, though it scarcely matters) that finally puts to paper whether or not the feds/states can ban firearms just because they say so. The rest of us can decide whether or not to continue honoring the social contract with our DC leadership at that point.

The flaw in Heller re: compelling state interest to trample our rights was likely a part of getting Kennedy on board with the majority, but I suspect more broadly the result of our modern judicial system's institutionalized cowardice, aka "stare decisis," which has come to submit well founded logical arguments to the mistakes of our forbears. Regardless of Kennedy, more than a few of the majority justices were likely unwilling to instantly undo a century's error as far as the Miller decision, outright, even if every single one of Scalia's supporting arguments against the DC handgun ban pointed at that exact conclusion. After all, the case was "only about handguns" so it therefore couldn't extend to rifles, shotguns, or heaven forbid, even machineguns! So they found a way to limit the scope to what they felt empowered to rule on, even if it defied all logic in their own decision up to that point.

TCB
 
Heller leaves the door wide open for the banning of "assault weapons" as well as machine guns and other NFA items. There's not a glimmer of support for those things in Scalia's opinion. In fact the lower courts have taken Heller as a green light for the validation of state-level "assault weapon" bans.

If, on the other hand, the Militia Clause had been given due weight and robustly interpreted (that is, by recognizing that the "militia" is the broad base of the citizenry), then those very categories of weaponry, being militarily useful, would have been sacrosanct.

Make no mistake -- the crux of the RKBA, going forward, is going to involve so-called "assault weapons." They're exponentially more effective, as weapons, than anything else.
 
Tenche Coxe, writing as "A Pennsylvanian" during the Federalist-Antifederalist debates wrote:

  • The power of the sword, say the minority..., is in the hands of Congress. My friends and countrymen, it is not so, for The powers of the sword are in the hands of the yeomanry of America from sixteen to sixty. The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress has no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every terrible implement of the soldier are the birthright of Americans.
  • The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments but where, I trust in God, it will always remain, in the hands of the people.
  • Whereas civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.
    • "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution," under the pseudonym "A Pennsylvanian" in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789, p. 2 col. 1. As quoted in the Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789, A friend of James Madison, writing in support of the Madison's first draft of the Bill of Rights.
  • The militia, who are in fact the effective part of the people at large, will render many troops quite unnecessary. They will form a powerful check upon the regular troops, and will generally be sufficient to over-awe them
 
Remember that Miller involved a sawed-off shotgun, and no evidence had been introduced that a sawed-off shotgun was part of the ordinary equipment of the military.
Because the government lied. The government claimed shotguns were not suitable for combat.

We used shotguns in trench fighting in WWI. In 1969, my company (A-1/61 IN) had shotguns and used them for ambush work in Northern I Corps.
 
Sounds like a multilevel-marketing scam, doesn't it?
It does. Welcome to the Sacred order of the Garter (or Bath), now go raise up a company of men competent enough to carry a pike.

Interestingly, during the reign of Elizabeth I, there was enough international chaos afoot to require various Regiments to be stood up indefinitely. Sine the serfs and yeomen were needed for "war industry" (food, ale, blacksmithing, lumber cutting, etc.) the Barons were allowed to hire "mercenaries" to stand in the place of the feudal levies. Since this was a burden, the Crown reimbursed the barons for the hired troops. Elizabeth was one of the first to require a roll call to 'prove' that all the troops being paid for were actually present or accounted for.

From that requirement comes our modern roll call.
 
Their swords and every terrible implement of the soldier
If only this were the guiding principle of all gun laws.

The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments but where, I trust in God, it will always remain, in the hands of the people.
An "amen" always seems mete after this; thus: Amen.
 
The more I think about this, the more I think the 2nd Amendment was the states' direct response to the militia clause in Art 1. I think basically they were saying "okay, you can have your federally armed militia, but we reserve the right to keep and bear our own private arms so no funny stuff."
 
The government claimed shotguns were not suitable for combat.
Yeah, other than a "fowling piece" was meant to be supplied, 2 per platoon in Tables of Organization going back into the 1700s
Territorial and colonial militias were allowed to be armed 1 in 8 with shotguns so as to ease the burden on the number of muskets needing smithing.
During the Spanish-American War, a significant number of the 'militias' raised up were armed with shotguns. Army QMC troops were regularly issued shotguns--if largely to harvest game for cookpots. The Marines integrated their supply and support forces much more closely to thei combatant forces (which is largely where shotguns became available in trenches).
Even in WWII, shotguns appeared on many TO&E, if often held in Regimental or Brigade Reserves.

So, the history of shotguns in military context existed--it was just ignored.

Mind, the original intent of NFA was to ban all "concealable" weapons; it was originally meant to be a hand gun ban. The drive to ban concealable weapons is why all the SBS abd SBR language is in there. Politically, handguns could not be banned. So, "machine guns" were made the straw man. With silencers put in by the anti-immigrant/minority types who wanted "those people" out of the National Parks of their "betters."

Had the nation not been in the grips of the New Deal worsened Depression, both NFA and Miller might have gone quite differently. And, as pointed out above, the very real threats to pack the Court or change its qount/makeup.
 
So, the history of shotguns in military context existed--it was just ignored.
The item at issue in Miller v. U.S. was not just any shotgun, but a "sawed off" shotgun. AFAIK the trench shotguns used in WWI had barrels of 18" or longer.

Regardless of the contorted facts in that case, the principle that came out of it was that arms ordinarily used by the armed forces were protected by the 2nd Amendment. (That's the implication of the ruling in the case, that guns that were not ordinarily useful to the armed forces were not protected.) Under Miller, a nexus to militia use protects an individual right. The citizen does not actually have to be a member of a militia.

It's too bad that the reasoning in the Miller case was set aside by Justice Scalia in the Heller case.
 
Has anyone actually read the constitution? Or even all the posts here in this thread?

Article 1 clearly states that the federal government is tasked with arming the militia.

And thats just what happened, at least when the Japanese invaded Alaska in June 1942 Locals formed militia units all over AK, those guys armed up and elected leaders. Our Govornment is 'reactionary' in any emergency, and After a few months, in mid winter, The Gov/Congress/US Army(one and the same)sent Muktuk Marston, with instructions to arm and organize the Militia's. He and others brought induction papers and crates of M-1917 rifles by dogsled across Alaska. They swore in officers/men and the 'militia' rolls who signed their name ( or made their 'mark') went over to Federal Service and the Alaska Territorial Guard formed. They were Militia, the Congress organized and armed them.Once inducted, they were no longer 'Militia', they were another branch of the U.S. Armed Services. For 6 months and more, they were a true 'militia', free Americans, every able bodied man, armed , at war, and vigilant.

At one time I had a sweet number of 1917's with my 'Eskimo rifle's collection' . My wife still has her dads.His is sporterized in the stock and an Ivory schanbel repairs a once busted front of the stock.
After the war ended, all those men got to keep their issued rifles.
Ive always been of the opinion that anyone who has had training and passed via the US military should have the option to take their issue small arms home after release from service. Who better trained, responsible and patriotic?
 
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Which goes back to the premise that the court did not wish to conflict with the newly-enacted NFA that had been the subject of much acrimony.
I agree completely. The result -- which was to uphold the NFA -- was preordained. But the way the Miller case played out, the Court seemed to state that militia arms were protected, and non-militia arms were not. Now, if the item in question had been a Thompson submachine gun instead of a sawed off shotgun, and the Court had upheld the NFA in regard to that, we would have had a completely different principle. The NFA's application to automatic weapons was never tested in the Supreme Court during that time period. Indeed, Miller seemed to indicate that it would not apply to automatic weapons.
 
The item at issue in Miller v. U.S. was not just any shotgun, but a "sawed off" shotgun. AFAIK the trench shotguns used in WWI had barrels of 18" or longer.

Do you seriously contend that a shotgun with an 18" barrel is suitable for military use, but a shotgun with a 17.999" barrel is not?

The law also bans short barreled rifles. What is the length of the barrel on our current M4?
 
If one cares to research the riot/trench shotgun you would realize that they all had 20" barrels. I have one with an original barrel. Barrel SN matches the receiver (1917).

It matters little weather the barrel is 16", 18" or 20" except to the ATF. The barrels have no choke. I've shot mine so I have a pretty good feeling for how effective they actually are. I wouldn't want one as a weapon in combat. In that respect the decision in Miller is defensible. The fact that shotguns with 20" barrels are far more popular for home defense than military use should give a clue.

When one starts talking about SBR's however I have a different opinion. The military has found a SBR (M4 and AK-47) to be a desirable and effective weapon.
 
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If one cares to research the riot/trench shotgun you would realize that they all had 20" barrels. I have one with an original barrel. Barrel SN matches the receiver (1917).

It matters little weather the barrel is 16", 18" or 20" except to the ATF. The barrels have no choke. I've shot mine so I have a pretty good feeling for how effective they actually are. I wouldn't want one as a weapon in combat. In that respect the decision in Miller is defensible. The fact that shotguns with 20" barrels are far more popular for home defense than military use should give a clue.

Exactly right -- a shotgun with a short barrel is just as suitable for military use as one with a longer barrel. And the military used many different shotguns, including "forager"
guns.
When one starts talking about SBR's however I have a different opinion. The military has found a SBR (M4 and AK-47) to be a desirable and effective weapon.
Right again.

This whole business about short barreled shoulder weapons being "bad" is nonsense.
 
And thats just what happened, at least when the Japanese invaded Alaska in June 1942 Locals formed militia units all over AK, those guys armed up and elected leaders. Our Govornment is 'reactionary' in any emergency, and After a few months, in mid winter, The Gov/Congress/US Army(one and the same)sent Muktuk Marston, with instructions to arm and organize the Militia's. He and others brought induction papers and crates of M-1917 rifles by dogsled across Alaska. They swore in officers/men and the 'militia' rolls who signed their name ( or made their 'mark') went over to Federal Service and the Alaska Territorial Guard formed. They were Militia, the Congress organized and armed them.Once inducted, they were no longer 'Militia', they were another branch of the U.S. Armed Services. For 6 months and more, they were a true 'militia', free Americans, every able bodied man, armed , at war, and vigilant.

At one time I had a sweet number of 1917's with my 'Eskimo rifle's collection' . My wife still has her dads.His is sporterized in the stock and an Ivory schanbel repairs a once busted front of the stock.
After the war ended, all those men got to keep their issued rifles.
Ive always been of the opinion that anyone who has had training and passed via the US military should have the option to take their issue small arms home after release from service. Who better trained, responsible and patriotic?

I don't think you see where I'm coming from. If the militia of the 2nd Amendment is the same militia of Art 1, and I don't see any reason to believe otherwise, then the militia is NOT dependent on the people being armed, as the federal government supplies the militia's arms. If the people is synonymous with the militia then the fed owes me a taxpayer funded M4.
 
I don't think you see where I'm coming from. If the militia of the 2nd Amendment is the same militia of Art 1, and I don't see any reason to believe otherwise, then the militia is NOT dependent on the people being armed, as the federal government supplies the militia's arms. If the people is synonymous with the militia then the fed owes me a taxpayer funded M4.
The 2nd AMENDMENT is called an "amendment" because it AMENDS or changes that which went before. Therefore the 2nd Amendment supercedes anything to the contrary in the original Constitution -- just as the 10th Amendment does.
 
I don't think you see where I'm coming from. If the militia of the 2nd Amendment is the same militia of Art 1, and I don't see any reason to believe otherwise, then the militia is NOT dependent on the people being armed, as the federal government supplies the militia's arms. If the people is synonymous with the militia then the fed owes me a taxpayer funded M4.

Have you ever trained, received any pay/compensation or been a part of a militia? What was your rank?
 
Exactly right -- a shotgun with a short barrel is just as suitable for military use as one with a longer barrel. And the military used many different shotguns, including "forager"
guns.

Right again.

This whole business about short barreled shoulder weapons being "bad" is nonsense.

That really wasn't my point but generally I have to agree with that.
 
I don't think you see where I'm coming from. If the militia of the 2nd Amendment is the same militia of Art 1, and I don't see any reason to believe otherwise, then the militia is NOT dependent on the people being armed, as the federal government supplies the militia's arms. If the people is synonymous with the militia then the fed owes me a taxpayer funded M4.


The Militia's existence precedes the Government's arming of them in time of war. If there were no Militia, there would be no mention of arming them, the process would have to start with the Gov forming a 'Militia', then arming it.

Until there is a crisis (war, insurrection, etc) the Militia, being every able bodied Man, simply exists and is armed by itself.

'The People'' and the 'Militia' are one and the same. Sooooo..........to be clear, if you reversed the sentences in the 2nd, to our modern way of talking, .........'' the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed (as/because) a well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state.....'' means the same when read in proper order too....

The Militia, once inducted, become a serving branch of the US military. Our M-4's are waiting for a national crisis and for our States Governor's to call up the Militia and fill out the ranks the military needs.

I showed the example Alaska has from WWII......the Militia formed, then Congress authorized the Army to appoint officers (give commissions), train, arm and pay the good folks of AK.......who, apon induction to military service, transitioned from a militia of Citizens into Alaska Territorial Guardsmen, and were then, no longer Militia.

The Militia is made up of all of ''U.S.'' :D
 
. Therefore the 2nd Amendment supercedes anything to the contrary in the original Constitution
Uh, no.
Go read the text of the 21st Amendment.

Legally, if an amendment is meant to modify, change, or delete a portion of anything that preceeds it, that action is spelled out.

This is as recognized in contract law as in statutory law. If a contract is constructed with a severability clause (as most good ones are), amending that contract to allow severation just creates a bad contract, unless tha amendment specifically deletes , abridges, or amends the existing severability clause. Otherwise the preceeding clause has presumption.

For your assertion to be true, the Amendment would need to read, in some fashion, "Article 1, Section 8, Clauses 15 & 16 shall be changed to read 'A well-regulated Militia being ...'."
 
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