2nd rights in more trouble then you realize

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rojoko

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Folks,
I've been been around the fight to preserve the 2nd ammendment rights now for over 30 years. Before the internet, I spent a LOT of money helping to provide discussion areas for both serious shooters and the 2nd fight.. this was for over 10 years.

The NRA and the 2nd ammendment is in trouble because the NRA does NOT have the ability to see the fight as it really exists and all the issues that concern this fight, especially dealing with the media. The NRA needs to seriously bring someone onboard to change the way they're doing things, because if they do not, they won't be around in another 20 to 30 or so years...

The American public is changing and they don't see it. The Shooting sommunity is shrinking radically... and they don't see it. There are a LOT of issues here, but they can't see it!
Some changes need to be made, or else the NRA and the 2nd Amendment won't be around that much longer....

Time to wake up folks... we're in worse trouble them many of you even begin to realize... If a lot of you can't get past the "How to deal with a stupid liberal nonsense... you might as well kiss it off now.. because the liberals have already won...

The single Largest problem for the shooting community is waking up to the extent of the problem (it has yet to do so), how bad of shape we're really in (it's worse then any of you realize) and what to do about it....

Please... spare me the wise-ass answers... been there already, not interested. I'd like to talk to the people that are honestly interested in protecting the Bill or Rights... and the 2nd ammendment.
 
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I'm game...

What's your angle?

Here's what I see:

I used to work in public education. I was a pukey liberal at the time. I was introduced to conservatism, responsibility and firearms during my time at public education. By educators and support staff. Pretty stereotypical suburban school district with lots of soccer moms.

There is a lack of hunters... true.

Camp Perry class competitors are scarce too.

But there is a HUGE rash of new gun owners growing up here... the kids of the Worst Generation Ever (my parents' kids... me). All the hippies that forbade gun ownership at home are doing the exact same thing that their parents did with drugs, sex and elvis 8-tracks... making their kids curious about those things.

Maybe we can't all afford half a dozen evil black rifles (only 1 EBR for me right now). Most of us can only afford inexpensive shotties, milsurp bolts or SKS's. Used handguns, combloc or otherwise.

But we're out there, we are strong, and we see what the 2A is for. September 11, 2001 woke up a lot of us. I bought my first handgun in June of 2002... it took a while to free up $600 for the gun, holster and ammo.

We will have some epic struggles ahead until the hippie senators die off... but they will. And they will be replaced by people of OUR choosing.

I'd honestly say that 60-70% of the 20-30 year old crowd is conservative.

Mexico? Is that your fear? The North American CoProsperity Union, or whatever they're calling it now? That is a significant fear. But we'll face it. Mexico screws everything up. As long as we remain vigilant, put the spotlight on the border where it needs to be, and expose every ounce of vile behavior that comes from that cesspool we will prevail.

Hitlery? Not worried. I can't explain fully why... I just don't think she has a real prayer of 1) winning her primary and 2) winning America.

United Nations? Show me Blue Helmets that can hold territory against hostile forces, and I will show you how to shoot an EBR.

Under-hunted forests where elk and deer roam with reckless abandon? Give me a few more years to work on my novice hunting skills, and I'll put that concern to bed.

Is there another threat you see that I haven't enumerated here?

I don't mean to treat you too lightly, and if there is an angle I haven't seen, please expose me to it. I just don't think it's truly all that bad when you sit back for a second and take it all in.
 
The only way the Second Amendment can be lost is if gun owners aren't willing to fight, kill, and die for it.

The SA doesn't depend on the NRA, which politicians get elected, or public opinion polls. Ultimately, it depends entirely on how many gun owners are "crazy" enough to do the same thing the founders of this country did -- physically fight for our freedom with sniping, ambushes, and general guerrilla-style mayhem.

So, if Americans lose the Second Amendment, then it means we weren't brave enough to be worthy of having it in the first place.
 
My concern for 2A is purely political. Our rights are being legislated away on many levels not just national but city, county, and state as well.

Nor is the danger limited to a single person. Even if _________ (Fill in your least favorite Anti) dropped dead of a heart attack tomorow/was discovered to be a mole for a foreign .gov/whatever scandal you want the anti gun movement would go on. And on.

Children are being taught in schools that guns are bad and that self defense is wrong. (Check with your local school most schools now days if student A is standing quietly reading a book and student B comes up from behind and without saying a word physicly attacks student A if student A defends himself both students will be given the same punishment :what: :fire: This is the standard practice in the Chicagoland region and from talking to family and friends in other states it seems to be extremely common if not standard nationwide.


So yeah I'm interested.

NukemJim
 
Most of the recent doom and gloom seems to be based upon the Democrats taking over both houses of Congress. I too am alarmed and expect there to be at least an attempt to pass more restrictive gun laws at the Federal level. However, don't count the NRA out, or the support of the 2A that exists throughout the U.S. Many of the newly elected Dems are pro-gun, from Southern states. If they took their pro-gun positions just to avoid the anger of conservative Republicans, they will quickly see that their re-election chances are slim, and re-election is what EVERY congressman and senator are constantly thinking about. My guess is that Nancy Pelosi and her buddies in the House, plus Chucky Shumer and his friends in the Senate will make some grandstanding efforts, probably focused on so-called assault weapons, but that the measures will die in the congress or be vetoed by the President, and that we will not see much change of the status quo in the next two years. What is critical is that we prevent the election of an anti-gun Democrat as President, such as the now saintly Barack Obama (a total far left winger who showed his true colors when a State Senator in Illinois) and Wicked Witch of the East Hillary who is an anti gun elitist who has no faith in the people. We have to become engaged politically. I have written to Mitt Romney, a reasonable conservative, and told him that my cash and vote are his only if and when he shows his full support for the 2nd Amendment. If enough of us show the same intention, we will get him, or another viable Republican to seek the support of the NRA and all gun owners and energize the conservative voters of this country. What we can't afford to do is to get enamored of the libertarians or other fringe elements that have NO chance to win the presidency and thus hand the election to our adversaries. I'm sticking with the NRA as well, who successfully backed and supported a large number of new legislators who have stood up for gun rights.
 
IMHO, We need to stop standing up for our personal gun rights. We need to stand up for the gun rights of the "Other Guy". Who ever he is. What ever he wants.

The shotgunners need to stand up for the Riflemen.
The riflemen need to stand up for the Handgun owners.
The school teachers need to stand up for the Commercial pilots.
The hunter needs to stand up for defensive concealed weapons.
The law abiding need to stand up for the non violent felons.
The C&R collector needs to stand up for the machine gun lovers.
We ALL need to stand up against gun free zones.

If you are from a town of 5,000 or less. How many voted in your last local election? Average percentage of voters is 20? percent (1,000) of population?
And the difference in number of votes between winner and loser? Typical is less than fifty votes decided winner and loser. ONE person pushing for or against a candidate COULD make a difference at that level.
OK, so you are from a town of 50,000? Add one zero to each of the numbers. Then get nine of your shooting buddies to help, and you CAN make a difference.

There are very few stupid politicians. If they do not watch the will of the voters, they cease to be politicians. If we do not speak (with our actions and our votes) they can not know our will.

No, I can not quote where these numbers come from. They are what I think, and I am an old man with a short memory. I have seen many local elections in my city and county of 50,000 won or lost by very small numbers. Maybe someone with good search and research abilities would care to pick any town or any city, and post the actual figures?
 
Okay, I'll try my two cents worth. Ksnecktieman has a valid point in that we should erect a solid frontal defense against our enemies, show some solidarity if you will. We need a common symbol. I would propose the Gadsden flag. If, and its a darn big if, we were ALL to fly that big yellow flag with its coiled snake and the words, "Don't Tread On Me," in our front yards people would begin to notice and ask.....why, and we'd have our moment to explain. The left would take notice. At least I'd hope they would. Trust me, they want votes. Votes, even ours keeps them in power. Face it, they think of themselves as the new aristocracy and they dearly wish to retain their status. Lets show them we are watching.
 
I'll add my two pesos here.

The key is increasing our ranks.
Nobody wants the rights they personally exercise taken away.
They just want the rights they eschew and fear in others taken away.

Join the NRA.
Become an instructor and teach our young citizens to shoot.
Take a liberal to the range.
Take your gun hating neighbor shooting.
Engage in the debate rationally and without emotion.
Do not become an antagonistic redfaced buffon in a shouting contest.

The opposition to gun ownership is fueled by emotion and misguided good intentions. Guide those good intentions in a more productive direction. The solution is conversion of those who oppose or have no opinion on the 2nd amendment. This can be done by making it an appealing and attractive pastime among Americans. If gun owners remain on the fringe of acceptable society, secreting away their pastime in private, then gun ownership will go the way of monster truck rallys, CB radios and custom vans.
 
The key is increasing our ranks.
Nobody wants the rights they personally exercise taken away.
They just want the rights they eschew and fear in others taken away.
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Agreed. Out of sight, out of mind. People don't give a darn about some other guy's rights that they themselves don't exercise.

Join the NRA.
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Check

Become an instructor and teach our young citizens to shoot.
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Will probably do at some point in the future.

Take a liberal to the range.
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Check. Took about 12-13 liberals to the range, and I converted several of them to firearm owners. Heck, I even invited my F- liberal senator to the range, but I have yet to get a response.

Take your gun hating neighbor shooting.
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Actually most of my neighbors are pro-gun, and I've gone shooting with them. I got one of them to actively campaign with me to get the Castle Doctrine laws passed in MI. If I run across an anti neighbor, you can bet I'll invite 'em to the range.

Engage in the debate rationally and without emotion.
Do not become an antagonistic redfaced buffon in a shouting contest.
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I try to do that all the time. Sometimes it works, and sometimes the ignorant anti "guns are evil" crowd gets frustrated by my calm, logical pro-gun debate and they walk away.
 
The Shooting sommunity is shrinking radically... and they don't see it.
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hmmmm, actually, I know many many people that have started shooting. Not to mention that guns in the media are being treated much better than they where in the 90's.
 
rojoko,

Do you have anything to substantiate these kinds of assertions?

The Shooting sommunity is shrinking radically
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The single Largest problem for the shooting community is waking up to the extent of the problem (it has yet to do so), how bad of shape we're really in (it's worse then any of you realize) and what to do about it
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And I assume from this statement you don't believe we are?
I'd like to talk to the people that are honestly interested in protecting the Bill or Rights... and the 2nd ammendment.
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One of the biggest problems is failing to back up the rhetoric with the research. We hear false information being spread by an anti gunner, and we end up with people ranting back with equally unsubstantiated rhetoric in response.

With the media, ever notice how the antis often use a Professor or other professional, and then let whoever will step up the the microphone answer for us?

That is a huge mistake. One however not usually recognized or even realized.

As an example, "Dr. Smith says home ownership of guns results in a greater risk..."

The research on that premise is flawed, but because "Dr. Smith" said it in print and on television, people are far more likely to accept it.

When countered by Joe Rube, who doesn't have the credibility with him, the false argument wins the day.

Then gun owners and activists write countless angry letters to the editor, railing against the Dr. We effectively reinforce the negative stereo-type the media created.

We look bad, politicians and bureaucrats then react with so called stronger gun laws.

Sick.

TIZ
 
You're right, but on several occasions I ran both the anti-gunner and obviously slanted moderator into the ground by doing my homework first - and this was before we had the Internet.

I've discovered that most of the "experts" on the other side are not very well informed, usually draw their information from questionable sources, and once caught become increasing emotional. A calm but logical attack is what does the trick.

But professor, you must be exaggerating... how can you spray bullets around with a gun that can only fire one cartridge when you pull the trigger??? You seem to be confused about the difference between a rifle and machine gun. :evil:
 
Sue for rights.

Pretty much every anti-gun measure is met with lots of sound and fury signifying nothing. Most court cases are either muddled by red herrings or criminal intent. The few decent cases filed lose and everyone else shrugs.

Get busy. We need so many pro-gun court cases underway that SCOTUS _must_ rule.
 
Get busy. We need so many pro-gun court cases underway that SCOTUS _must_ rule.
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What makes you so sure the Supreme Court would rule in our favor? After all, they are part of the National Government, and government tends to look after its own interests first. :uhoh:
 
Thanks for stopping by to save us.

It is worse than even you think. Many here feel so strongly about the Confederacy or whether some constitutional chicanery was actually good for the country that they will not allow that the 2nd Amendment applies to the States. So here we are, going 'round and 'round.
 
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