30/06 load

[Hummbird]

Im going to load some 165 gr. 30/06 rem. 700 to deer hunt with and my question is, i have read that H4350 and H or IMR 4895 are the best to use. I see that it takes much less 4895 than the 4350 so wouldnt it be the cheapest to use the 4895, or is there a lot of diffrence. I have read to use 44.4 to 47.8 grs. of the 4895. and 51 to 55.4 grs. of the 4350. Any help would be great , Thanks

 

[kerreckt]

4350 is a slower powder and should give you higher velocity. I would load some of each and determine which one my rifle likes. Each rifle has its own preferences and will shoot some loads more accurately than others. Best wishes.

 

[RPRNY]

Starting published load for IMR4895 with 165 grs bullets is 49 grs. Starting load for H4350 is 53 grs. That difference opens up a bit as you move up, so let's say a 6 grs difference. There are 7,000 grains in a pound of powder. Taking $30 a pound (it's a round number) that makes approximate $0.025 difference per round loading IMR 4895 vs H4350 (based on both at $30 per pound). Only you can say whether that's material to you.

Economy is not a factor that I use in deciding powder choice for handloads. Availability, accuracy, velocity, and convenience (metering, multiple use) are the factors that drive my choices. But that's me. In the case of the two powders that you are considering, the difference in velocity is likely less than 100 fps for like loads. I prefer H4350 for 180 grs loads and IMR 4064 for 165 grs loads in my current 30-06 rifle.

 

[reddog81]

Whatever load is most accurate. Unless you're shooting thousands of rounds every month the cost difference is immaterial.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I wouldn't let a few pennies a round be the deciding factor in which powder I chose. It's just not enough of a difference to matter when you're talking the amount of shooting you'll do with a deer rifle.
I don't let max velocity decide either. I don't shoot at extremely long ranges, so I don't care about 50 or so fps.
I use RL15 because of its versatility and the fact that it gives MOA or better groups with a 165 grain SGK bullet out of my '06. There are definitely many powders that give a higher velocity, but I've never had a whitetail that could tell you the difference.

Try a few powders and loads and see what your gun shoots the most accurately. Use that one.

 

[jmr40]

There are lots of "GOOD" powders that will do what you want to do. H4350 is my 1st pick, but there are others that may shoot better in another rifle. With bullets in the 150-180 gr range either H4350, IMR4350, RL17 or Ramshot Hunter would be my picks. I get darn near the same speeds and accuracy with all of them, but prefer H4350 because it is more stable over a wide range of temperatures than the others.

I don't know where you got your load data, but my manuals show H4350 starting loads at 53 gr up to 59 gr with close to 2950 fps for a top end load. I'm showing closer to 51 gr for 4895 and the best loads with 4895 won't even match what I could do with a 308. There are a lot better powders for 30-06 than 4895. If you're going to get 308 speeds, buy a 308 and then you can reduce powder use by 1/3.

The economy here just isn't that big of a deal. A pound of H4350 will get you about 120 loads, a pound of 4895 about 137 rounds in a 30-06.

 

[sage5907]

I am not a fan of 4895 because as you move up toward the maximum load pressures can increase very quickly. On the other hand, I have found IMR 4350 to be an excellent powder with 165 grain bullets. 57 grains of IMR 4350 has been a long used load for 165 grain bullets. If you're looking for a very accurate deer load that will do better than either powder try a Sierra Game King 150 grain bullet with 57 grains of Reloader 17. I use it in 5 30-06 rifles and it works better than either of the powders that you mentioned. Start with 55 grains and work up to 57 grains to make sure you aren't doing anything wrong with weighing the powder.

 

[dgod]

i don't know the difference between H4350 and IMR4350,

I have had good luck with IMR4350, specifically 168gr JHP, 57.0gr IMR4350, LRP, resulted in 0.590" Groups at 200 yds, Velocity at 2886fps, from my Remington 770. If chosen, start low and work up for your firearm.

Good Luck
Dan

 

[Nature Boy]

Ditto the recommendation for IMR4350. It seems to be easier to find that H4350 as the latter is popular with the cool kids shooting their fancy "Creeds"

He's my .30-06 hunting load development thread

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/30-06-hunting-load-development.812298/

 

[Slamfire]

I have shot tens of thousands of 30-06 rounds, in NRA competition, with three basic loads. Two were a 168 or 175 Match bullet with 47.0 grains IMR 4895 or 55.0 IMR 4350. These loads were staples for decades in Camp Perry Competitions. They are predictable in hot or cold weather, which is very important. Develop loads in the springtime, shoot them all the way to the Nationals, and then find out they are overpressure and you are popping primers in hot July-Aug Camp Perry weather!. That sort of ruins your score and your shooting year!. (Pressure is not your friend).

I believe it is nonsense that you can some how push bullets faster with IMR 4350 than IMR 4895. Book values and data just don't work out in the real world, especially since no one I know has a pressure guage. Maybe if you could measure pressure you would see a velocity difference, but what you are going to see in real life is that if you are pushing maximum loads, suddenly you are going to be popping primers, you are going to be surprised by the phenomena as it creeps up without warning, and the velocities are not going to be that much different between the powders.

Any of the 4895 series of powders are appropriate and will do well with you 165’s. That is IMR 4895, H4895 and AA2495. AA2495 is a ballistic copy of IMR 4895 but Accurate Arms stupidly calls it AA2495, instead of AA4895, and confuses everyone. (they do call their copy of IMR 4350 Accurate Arms 4350, and AA4350 is a ballistic copy of IMR 4350) . I have found very little velocity difference between any of the powders by weight. Buy by price.

I use my 165/168/174/175 grain data interchangeably. Loads developed with my ammo boxes of pulled GI 174 FMJBT have always proved safe with any 165 grain hunting bullet, any 168 match bullet, and my 175 Sierra's. I have conducted a lot of load development with the 174 FMJBT match bullets, because, they shoot well and I got them cheap! I cracked LC match ammunition, pulled the 174's and substituted 168 SMK's, as everyone did back then. It was called Mexican Match.

The following is chronograph data I measured with my Mauser Match rifle, it has a 26” 1:10 Wilson barrel”




I did a primer test, seeing how primer brands affected velocity. Not that much, but a little.

 168 gr Nosler Match 47.0 IMR 4895 thrown lot L7926 FA/LC cases WLR (brass) OAL 3.30"

13 Aug 2014  T =  80  °F     
      
Ave Vel = 2650      
Std Dev = 16       
ES = 46       
High = 2675      
Low = 2629     
N = 8     

174 FMJBT White Box 1968 NM M72, Headstamp LC67 match, box velocity 2640 fps
14 Nov 2011 T =  68 °F     
  
Ave Vel = 2698      
Std Dev = 51     
ES = 117      
High = 2771     
Low = 2654      
N = 5     
       
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI #34 OAL 3.30   
 
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F     
     
Ave Vel = 2645      
Std Dev = 12       
ES = 42        
High = 2671       
Low = 2629        
N = 10       
    

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Tula 7.62 lot 1-10 primers OAL 3.30 

14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F     

Ave Vel = 2665      
Std Dev = 9       
ES = 28        
High = 2677       
Low = 2649        
N = 10       
 outstanding accuracy     


174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Wolf NCLR lot 18-09 OAL 3.30   
  
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F     
  
Ave Vel = 2656      
Std Dev = 15       
ES = 36        
High = 2677       
Low = 2641       
N = 9       
    
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Fed 210S OAL 3.30   
       
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F     
  
Ave Vel = 2656      
Std Dev = 13       
ES = 34        
High = 2674       
Low = 2640        
N = 10       
     
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM WLR (Nickle)  OAL 3.30 
    
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F     

Ave Vel = 2665      
Std Dev = 18       
ES = 60        
High = 2696       
Low = 2636        
N = 10       

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI200  OAL 3.30   
       
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F     

Ave Vel = 2680      
Std Dev = 14       
ES = 56        
High = 2712       
Low = 2656        
N = 10       
    

175 Sierra Match 47.0 grs  AA2495 wtd CCI 34 R-P Cases OAL 3.30" 

5-May-00 T =  82 ° F     
       
Ave Vel = 2704      
Std Dev = 17       
ES = 44       
Low = 2677       
High = 2721       
N = 5       

175 gr Sierra 55.0grs  AA4350 wtd. FED 210M W/W cases OAL 3.30" 

 5 Oct 2000 T=70° F     
  
Ave Vel = 2710        
Std Dev = 18       
ES = 43       
Low = 2679       
High = 2722       
N = 5       

Group Size: Excellent group, rounded primers   

175gr Sierra 56.0 grs  H4350 wtd. WLR  Commercial cases OAL 3.290" 
 
 5 Oct 2000 T=70° F       

Ave Vel = 2733      
Std Dev = 24       
ES = 80       
Low = 2686       
High = 2766       
N = 14

This rifle shot 168's and 47.0 grain IMR 4895 very well at 300 yards. The high shot is primarily due to me trying to move the group up by shifting point of aim. These CMP targets are in fact a huge featureless black circle, no aiming point in the black. With my 6X scope I was quartering the target, and quite afraid to touch the windage and elevation knobs. A slight movement up and shot eight moved a lot. Might have been a three inch group with out that.





It took me 13 shots, only seven of which are on target, to get the scope in the ten ring at 600 yards!



But once there, I was very surprised to see that 165 Rem Core Lokts and old IMR 4064 shot a 7 3/4" group at 600 yards, out of a 1937 vintage barrel.




This is a different pre WW2 M70 in 30-06. This rifle also shoots a 168 with 47.0 grs IMR 4895 very well. A 17 round group size of 5 3/4" at 300 yards is not bad from a M70 Sporter!





I have not posted any of my 175 SMK targets with 55.0 grains IMR 4350 or 56.0 grains H4350. They shoot the same within my hold. I can't tell a difference except for recoil. I always preferred IMR 4895 in the rapids because the IMR 4895 loads kicked less. I don't know why, the velocity of the bullets is basically the same and yet, be it IMR 4350 or H4350, they both hurt more.

So, my recommendation, of IMR 4895 or IMR 4350, buy by price. I promise, you won't save any money buying IMR 4895. Yes, you can get more cartridges out of a pound, but, powder spills and mistakes always proves that the best laid plans gang aft agley.

 

[Sunray]

"...it be the cheapest..." It's not about being the cheapest. It's about being the most consistently accurate. And that's done with IMR4064. Uses a tick less powder for ~ the same velocities as the 4895's, but it is far more consistently accurate than either the 4895's. Only use IMR4350 for .243 myself.
"...have read to use..." There is no such thing. You must work up the load for your rifle from the start load.
"...difference between H4350 and IMR4350..." Very slight difference in burn rate. IMR is #114 on the burn rate chart. The 'H' is #116. Then it gets weird. Hodgdon, for who knows why(likely age), tested the IMR in PSI, the 'H' in CUP. So that doesn't get compared. However, the IMR max load of 60.0 is compressed. The 'H' max load of 59.0 is not. Difference in max load velocity is a whole 4 FPS in favour of the 'H'.
"...their fancy "Creeds"..." That'd be a Sharps Creedmoor Target rifle in .45-70. snicker.

 

[Captcurt]

My go to test load for a new 30-06 rifle has been a 168gr SMK or 165gr Nosler BT over a starting load of IMR-4350. Normally, if it doesn't shoot that load well it will need some major tweaking. The difference of 2 cents a round just doesn't balance when it comes to the performance of a load. Your slower powders will produce better velocity than the faster powders when you are talking about the mid to heavy projectiles.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

For a bolt action 30-06 and a 165/168gr bulletin use almost my nothing other than H4350. It delivers consistent velocity and is very accurate in my rifles. I use 4895 for M1 Garand ammo.

Like said above, there are many good powders for the 30-06. I just prefer H4350 followed by IMR4350.

 

[Hummbird]

Thank all you guys for the info, your a great help

 

[Ironicaintit]

My Garand loads are with IMR4895 or AA2495. 47 grains, whether it be 150 or 175s. Pretty accurate in the ol' girl, and won't kill the op-rod. The only other 30-06 I have is a gamemaster 760, and it shoots its best groups with IMR3031, a faster powder... Go figure. Velocity isn't what it'd get with 4350, but I don't figure the game will be able to dodge it.

 

[stoky]

I use IMR4350 with 180gr bullets in a Model 70. It's the only rifle I own that's the most accurate with a max load. Interesting (or not ) the manual doesn't list as hot a load with H4350, I tried the max load (& less) and it wasn't quite as accurate as IMR.
ymmv
4895 isn't just faster burning BTW. It's a lot faster.

 

[entropy]

My .30-06 powder of choice was IMR 3031, but I was shooting 165 Partitions from a 18.5" Rem. 742. It shot small groups without beating the gun up, which was problem with those. My Dad used IMR 4350 with 150 and 165's and got good result from his M70.