30-06 or .308? (Considering rifle purchase)
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sansone
Member
I'm gonna admit my lack of curly hair, 308 is more comfortable to shoot because of recoil being less than 30-06. My shot placement is better (no flinch). 30-06 may be better for elk but I have no experience there, just bullet weight and powder charge making that decision. If ammo cost matters than 308, if you aren't recoil sensitive 30-06 for more power
BrocLuno
Member
If you are considering a nice older lever, go 308 in a Savage 99. That'll get er done just fine and be fun too 
Guns&Religion, I just went through a long process of selecting my new "deer rifle" about seven months ago. I wanted a 30 cal bullet, and I was fairly certain of that early in the process, and I studied a lot and asked questions of folks that are more experienced than I am, regarding 30-06 vs. 308.
After all that, I agree with what Don said, shop the gun, not the cartridge. I went to a very well stocked Gander Mountain and picked up a lot of rifles, focusing mostly on Tikka, Ruger, Win 70s, and Savage. It was easy for me to quickly decide that a Savage 11FNS just felt "best" to me, by a wide margin too. It's a personal "fit" thing, along with how you like the feature set. I didn't end up buying at Gander, but being able to pick a lot of candidates up one after another was a big help.
After all that, I agree with what Don said, shop the gun, not the cartridge. I went to a very well stocked Gander Mountain and picked up a lot of rifles, focusing mostly on Tikka, Ruger, Win 70s, and Savage. It was easy for me to quickly decide that a Savage 11FNS just felt "best" to me, by a wide margin too. It's a personal "fit" thing, along with how you like the feature set. I didn't end up buying at Gander, but being able to pick a lot of candidates up one after another was a big help.
SeekHer
Member
If you're looking for a lever action then both the discontinued Savage 99 and the Winchester Model 88 are available in .308 only but the still going strong Browning BLR is available in both and is also offered in a takedown version...Pump action your limited to the Remington 74xx series in .30/06 and in single shots or bolt jobs every maker will accommodate you.
As stated, make sure you get a gun that fits you for length of pull but more importantly how you line up on your sights (iron or glass) when you snap it to your shoulder--so pay attention to the stock design.
Really muddy the waters but throw the Russian 7.52x54Rmm round and the British 7.7x57Rmm (.303 British) and the Japanese 7.7x58mm (.311) into the mix...All had ABOUT the same velocity, energy, accuracy and when built up in conversions or semi or full custom guns make great hunting rifles...Anything that the .30/06 (7.62x63mm) was converted to after the wars, .25/06, 6mm/06, .338/06, .375/06 etc. was also done with the .303 British and it could also handle 240 gr bullets...My uncle hunts with a .35/06 that duplicates the .35 Whelen
As stated, make sure you get a gun that fits you for length of pull but more importantly how you line up on your sights (iron or glass) when you snap it to your shoulder--so pay attention to the stock design.
Really muddy the waters but throw the Russian 7.52x54Rmm round and the British 7.7x57Rmm (.303 British) and the Japanese 7.7x58mm (.311) into the mix...All had ABOUT the same velocity, energy, accuracy and when built up in conversions or semi or full custom guns make great hunting rifles...Anything that the .30/06 (7.62x63mm) was converted to after the wars, .25/06, 6mm/06, .338/06, .375/06 etc. was also done with the .303 British and it could also handle 240 gr bullets...My uncle hunts with a .35/06 that duplicates the .35 Whelen
SeekHer
Member
Sorry, but it is the amount of powder that creates recoil not bullet weight although it does play into Newton's Third Law somewhat but not significantly...If You shoot a 150 gr bullet over X amount of XYZ powder from a .308 or a .30/06 in a gun weighing the same the recoil will be exactly the same.
If you shoot the same powder load and in one use a 150 gr and the other a 180 gr bullet you will not detect any significant amount of recoil increase, actually you would find a small decrease since you're having to propel a heavier bullet, which takes longer to get moving and one of the tenets of recoil reduction is "delay"...I'm talking so small that you would need instruments to know it occurred.
To propel heavier bullets, they put larger charges of powder in the case so that 180 gr will shoot at about the same velocity as a lighter bullet.
Same thing with shotshells, everyone says that slugs recoil harder then bird shot--well, duh, they have twice the amount of powder in them but the projectile is the same weight, 1 ounce but that's because they're shooting down a 200 lb. deer not not a 5 lb duck.
BrocLuno
Member
As far as felt recoil, stock design may be a bigger factor than the charge and bullet weight. Bad stocks hurt
"Sorry, but it is the amount of powder that creates recoil not bullet weight"
Nope. It's both.
"If you shoot the same powder load and in one use a 150 gr and the other a 180 gr bullet you will not detect any significant amount of recoil increase, actually you would find a small decrease since you're having to propel a heavier bullet"
Nope.
"To propel heavier bullets, they put larger charges of powder in the case so that 180 gr will shoot at about the same velocity as a lighter bullet."
Nope. Totally incorrect.
Nope. It's both.
"If you shoot the same powder load and in one use a 150 gr and the other a 180 gr bullet you will not detect any significant amount of recoil increase, actually you would find a small decrease since you're having to propel a heavier bullet"
Nope.
"To propel heavier bullets, they put larger charges of powder in the case so that 180 gr will shoot at about the same velocity as a lighter bullet."
Nope. Totally incorrect.
Geckgo
Member
Armchair physics and guns, gotta love it!
Getting back on topic, the .308 is a .30-06 short. I chose the -06 when I got my "deer" rifle, but for the sake of comparing the functional differences of the two cartridges, there really is none to note other than the regular stuff about bullets.
.30-06 is available in a wide range of bullets from the sporting goods store, from 125gr reduced recoil to 220gr monster bullets
.308 and 7.62 ammo for fun/plinking is widely availible and pretty cheap.
Garands are generally 30.06 guns, ARs are generally .308/7.62, what kind of autoloader might you be looking at someday?
When I bought my Remmy 700, I was sold on the "slightly more powerful" 30-06, but it truth, functionally, it's not that much more powerful.
.308 can generally take the same game as the 06, and 180gr bullet will work in either.
If you reload, everything except for the brass and the dies is pretty much interchangable. For a "hunting" gun, get whatever you like. If you will be doing a lot of shooting, I think the 308 might be a little easier on the pocketbook. If you are planning a trip to Africa, I would first suggest another weapon, but between the two would go with the 06 as it fills the heavy bullet niche a little better.
Getting back on topic, the .308 is a .30-06 short. I chose the -06 when I got my "deer" rifle, but for the sake of comparing the functional differences of the two cartridges, there really is none to note other than the regular stuff about bullets.
.30-06 is available in a wide range of bullets from the sporting goods store, from 125gr reduced recoil to 220gr monster bullets
.308 and 7.62 ammo for fun/plinking is widely availible and pretty cheap.
Garands are generally 30.06 guns, ARs are generally .308/7.62, what kind of autoloader might you be looking at someday?
When I bought my Remmy 700, I was sold on the "slightly more powerful" 30-06, but it truth, functionally, it's not that much more powerful.
.308 can generally take the same game as the 06, and 180gr bullet will work in either.
If you reload, everything except for the brass and the dies is pretty much interchangable. For a "hunting" gun, get whatever you like. If you will be doing a lot of shooting, I think the 308 might be a little easier on the pocketbook. If you are planning a trip to Africa, I would first suggest another weapon, but between the two would go with the 06 as it fills the heavy bullet niche a little better.
If you are afraid of the recoil of a 308 or 3006, then either cartridge is not for you. Buy a smaller caliber rifle. Trying to come up with a load, powder and bullet, that has less recoil is defeating the purpose of even owning a rifle in 308 or 3006....chris3
bobnob
Member
If I was in the market for a rifle, chasing the range of game you are after, I would go for a short action 338 Federal with a handy 22 inch barrel.
We don't have Elk down here, but we have Sambar deer and they are BIG suckers. You can't legally hunt them with anything under .277 calibre and at least 51mm cartridge length. So it has to be a 7mm-08 at least, or a .270 Win.
So if an Elk is as big or bigger than a Sambar, get something that will allow you to deliver a decent weight bonded projectile in case your shot angle is less than ideal.
I would go the 30-06 over a 308 if I only had the two to choose from.
We don't have Elk down here, but we have Sambar deer and they are BIG suckers. You can't legally hunt them with anything under .277 calibre and at least 51mm cartridge length. So it has to be a 7mm-08 at least, or a .270 Win.
So if an Elk is as big or bigger than a Sambar, get something that will allow you to deliver a decent weight bonded projectile in case your shot angle is less than ideal.
I would go the 30-06 over a 308 if I only had the two to choose from.
1stmarine
Member
Both great options with TSX 168gr or 180gr.
You will get a little extra speed with the 30.06 but longer action and a tad more expensive to reload.
with the .308 win you find great deals of FMJ ammo for practicing and great brass for reloads more affordable. + short action.
Also you have more system options in incredible accurate out of the box packages.
it is hard to go wrong with either.
You will get a little extra speed with the 30.06 but longer action and a tad more expensive to reload.
with the .308 win you find great deals of FMJ ammo for practicing and great brass for reloads more affordable. + short action.
Also you have more system options in incredible accurate out of the box packages.
it is hard to go wrong with either.
Salty1
Member
I faced a very similar decision as I was invited to hunt private land in Colorado for elk in October. I did a lot of research and ended up with the Tikka T3 lite in stainless chambered in 30-06. The reason I picked the cartridge over the 308 and 300 Win Mag was availability in even remote areas if required and the various hunting cartridges available. I zero'd it last weekend for 3 inches high at 100 yards and the 3 shot groups were within a quarter size, not bad for my old eyes. I found a great site for elk hunting and he also talks about calibers and zero, worth a read....
[http://elkhunter2.tripod.com/index.html
[http://elkhunter2.tripod.com/index.html
Kachok
Member
After many hours of reserching it comes down to this.
If you hunt anything larger then deer go 30-06
If you plan on more long range target shooting then big game hunting go 308
The 200-240gr bullets give the 06 a clear advantage on elk-moose game
The shorter action and lighter recoil give the 308 an advantage on punching paper.
For hunting deer within realistic ranges flip a coin you cannot go wrong either way. Both do the job well with minimal fuss. Personaly I like 30-06 just because it is a tad more versatile, and there is alot of history behind that cartrage.
If you hunt anything larger then deer go 30-06
If you plan on more long range target shooting then big game hunting go 308
The 200-240gr bullets give the 06 a clear advantage on elk-moose game
The shorter action and lighter recoil give the 308 an advantage on punching paper.
For hunting deer within realistic ranges flip a coin you cannot go wrong either way. Both do the job well with minimal fuss. Personaly I like 30-06 just because it is a tad more versatile, and there is alot of history behind that cartrage.
paradox 12
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i would go with 308 it kills people so it must be strong enough for mules ask any police sharp shooter or milatary sniper
Geckgo
Member
what the?,, eeep!!!
Gtscotty
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Well, I don't have any physicists in my immediate family, but I did do my capstone design project on rifle recoil reduction, and the equation we wound up using (came straight out of an old school engineering text on field artillery) took both bullet weight and powder weight into account, although bullet weight had much more effect on recoil than the gasses from burning powder.
On the topic at hand, unless you are specifically looking for a lighter weight short action rifle, I would go with the 30-06. I know that the .308 is plenty powerful for deer, but when you start looking at the mid to heavy bullet weights, the 30-06 with hot loads really runs away from a similarly loaded .308.
From Lyman's 49th
max loads from each cartridge/bullet weight
________150gr 165gr 180gr
.308 (fps) 2996 2756 2578
30-06(fps) 3012 2959 2840
300 WM(fps) 3247 3103 2987
Now, we all know that any of the above 3 will kill deer at ranges well beyond what 99% of people can hit them at, but, I just wanted to put that up there to make a point. When people say that the .308 is the total equivalent (or even more powerful) than the '06, this equivalency is only really valid at 150 gr bullet weights. From 165 gr on up, the 30-06 is much closer to the 300 win mag than the .308 in terms of speed and power.
On the topic at hand, unless you are specifically looking for a lighter weight short action rifle, I would go with the 30-06. I know that the .308 is plenty powerful for deer, but when you start looking at the mid to heavy bullet weights, the 30-06 with hot loads really runs away from a similarly loaded .308.
From Lyman's 49th
max loads from each cartridge/bullet weight
________150gr 165gr 180gr
.308 (fps) 2996 2756 2578
30-06(fps) 3012 2959 2840
300 WM(fps) 3247 3103 2987
Now, we all know that any of the above 3 will kill deer at ranges well beyond what 99% of people can hit them at, but, I just wanted to put that up there to make a point. When people say that the .308 is the total equivalent (or even more powerful) than the '06, this equivalency is only really valid at 150 gr bullet weights. From 165 gr on up, the 30-06 is much closer to the 300 win mag than the .308 in terms of speed and power.
Sav .250
Member
Both will do the job but the "06" would be my personal choice.
Kachok
Member
Do not agree. The 06 has a better trajectory by a small margin, but the 308 replaced it in long range shooting. Shorter powder charges have slightly better consistancy in fps variation that is why nearly every all custom benchrest rifles use short action calibers (6.5x284, 6mm PPC.....etc) now that is a vey small difference and you would have to be punching paper past 600 yards for any noticable improvement. I have not seen a 30-06 win any benchrest match in many years, have you? That takes nothing away from it as a hunting caliber though where those heavy bullets really shine, for real world killing power I personaly put alot more stock in the SD/momentum formula than any KE based system.
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nortexeric
Member
Another vote for "Buy the rifle, not the cartridge"
With that said, either caliber is fine for what you're wanting to do. Although, I have noticed the rifles seem to be cheaper in 30-06 vs .308, example being the Savage rifle and scope combo from Gander Mtn. $400 for the 30-06 vs $600 for the short actions (.308). On the other end of the spectrum you have ammo costs, .308 being the cheaper to buy from what I've seen. Monarch and a few others even have .308 at $6 for 20 rnds. Sure, its crappy ammo, but if your just trying to get trigger time and work your technique more, that's a big plus. Of course, you can always reload.
Anyways, point is this: Find a rifle you like that feels good and that you'll be happy with and it'll all work out in the end.
-Eric
With that said, either caliber is fine for what you're wanting to do. Although, I have noticed the rifles seem to be cheaper in 30-06 vs .308, example being the Savage rifle and scope combo from Gander Mtn. $400 for the 30-06 vs $600 for the short actions (.308). On the other end of the spectrum you have ammo costs, .308 being the cheaper to buy from what I've seen. Monarch and a few others even have .308 at $6 for 20 rnds. Sure, its crappy ammo, but if your just trying to get trigger time and work your technique more, that's a big plus. Of course, you can always reload.
Anyways, point is this: Find a rifle you like that feels good and that you'll be happy with and it'll all work out in the end.
-Eric
Flatbush Harry
Member
I have two .30-06s (Savage 116, Win M70 Extreme Weather) and a .308 (Rem 700 SPS SS). All three are capable of <1MOA shooting with my preferred hunting loads (either Nosler 168gr BT or Barnes 168gr TSX/TTSX) off a Caldwell lead sled. I'm equally confident in all three and in both cartridges. I wouldn't hesitate to choose either round. Go with the cartridge that your rifle in which you have the greatest confidence shoots.
FH
FH
SeekHer
Member
Sorry, but "Yep" it is.
Take for example the S&W Model 500 in .500 S&W—the most powerful commercial handgun cartridge there is…Using the same 440 gr bullet I can make that into a pussy cat or a tiger or something somewhere in-between by just adding or reducing the powder charge.
SPECIFICATIONS
Bullet Diameter: .500 in.
Max Overall Length: 2.250 in.
Case Capacity: 64.8 gr. water
NOMINAL PERFORMANCE
Bullet Weight: 440 gr
Muzzle Velocity: 1625 fps
Muzzle Energy: 2581 ft-lbs
440 gr Cast
Velocity…..Energy
Fps………..ft/lbs
1191…..1386
1278…..1596
1300…..1651
1393…..1896
1483…..2149
1496…..2187
1509…..2225
1609…..2530
1653…..2670
1654…..2674…..All fired from a 10” barrel
Difference is in the amount and/or type of powder used but it’s still a 440 gr bullet exiting the same barrel of the same gun there will be a noticeable difference between the top and bottom load.
You have to get your projectile up to its proper speed to aide in its optimal expansion upon contact…Chart below shows that by keeping the same powder charge, by changing the weight of the bullet reduces velocity and subsequently energy…With the 150 gr Berger you needed different weight of different powders to achieve the same velocity but if you increased the bullet weight and kept the type and volume of powder the same velocity decreased…To get a heavier bullet to travel at a higher speed you have to add more of the same powder or substitute a different powder that will produce a higher velocity i.e. 54 gr of VVN150 produced nearly the same velocity (-22 fps) as 56 gr of H414..
BERGER 150 GRAIN HP
54.0….. VVN 150………..3032
56.0….. H414…………….3010
SIERRA 168 MATCH KING
54.0…..VVN 150……………2951
53.0….. H414………….……2798
SIERRA 180 GRAIN MATCH KING
54.0….. VVN 150…………2759
53.0….. H414……………..2789
BERGER 185 GRAIN BT
57.0…..VVN160………….2739
BERGER 190 GRAIN
57.0…..VVN160…………..2719
BERGER 210 GRAIN BT
57.0…..VVN160…………..2698
Info found at the Ammo Guide, Reloaders Bench and Accurate Reloading as I don’t have my newest powder and bullet manuals here.
Excluding reducing the amount of powder in the case, there are only four things that you can do to a firearm to reduce felt recoil:
Disburse/Disturb—Gas system in semi auto and install devices like Muzzle brakes and Mag-na-port, etc.
Delay—Recoil pads and/or absorbing stocks
Re-direct—Stock shape
Increase weight—Mercury tubes as an example to slow down the pressure.
That’s it, nothing else—anything out there is just a variant or combination of the above.
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