.30-'06 Surplus brass

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I am pretty new to reloading, and was planning on reloading some mil-surplus brass. I was reading a reloading manual and it said to reduce the starting load by 5% more than you would a civilian manufacture case. It said to do this because the case walls are thicker with surplus brass. I have also read that surplus brass is harder than commercial brass, but when I got my dies (Lee) and read the instructions, it said that you should reduce the starting load by 5% more than normal, just as the reloading manual said, but it said that it was because military brass is softer than commercial brass.

Which is true? Is military brass harder, softer, or thicker than commercial brass? Thanks.
 
Mil brass is thicker than commercial, at least in .30-06 and .308. The .223 is NOT thicker. I have found body of the mil brass to be harder than commercial, and the necks slightly softer because of the annealing. That's just my observations.
 
Reducing charge weights for military .30-06 brass is not necessary. This is simply a case of people ASSUMING that because military 7.62x51 brass is heavier and has less case capacity than commercial .308 brass, that this holds true for .30-06 as well. It does not. In fact, commercial Federal .30-06 brass is heavier and has less case capacity than military .30-06 brass. I have loaded the .30-06 for competitive shooting for years, and using Lapua brass and Lake City Match brass, I get the same velocity/pressure.

Don
 
Do you have any commercial 30-06 such as Winchester or Remington? Simple test is deprime clean & weigh it versus the military. If the military brass is averaging heavier it is thicker inside, as outside demensions are a constant. At least one of your questions will be solved as far as hardness goes, can it ever hurt to start with a minimum load and work up, looking for pressure signs?
 
That is what I do---Weigh a few and see what is up. If it is the same I treat it as the same. If different I reduce the charge 5% more if it weighs more. But always reduce the MAX charge by 10% for starting loads unless the book says not to for that particular propellant. Always reduce your load (I use 5%) and work back up when changing lots of propellant also. Some say this is not needed but if that was the case the propellant manufacturers would not bother tell you to do it. I am a belt and suspender type of guy so I always do it.
 
Depending on the type of powder you intend to use, I wouldn't reduce to below starting charges. Certain slow burning powders are not OK to reduce to below minimum charges. Those type powders become unpredictable when they are taken down to below published minimums.
 
medalguy, it's all three?!?! It is harder, softer and thicker? If I anneal it myself (at the correct temperature), and do the body and the neck/shoulder will it change it to the same hardness?

DoubleMag, I have both Remington and Winchester, I will have to check them out. Thanks for the idea...

FROGO207, I plan on reducing my starting loads by ten percent (the instructions with the dies said to do that), and the instructions also said to reduce the military brass loads by fifteen percent.

gamestalker, I plan on using H4831 for a while, I know that it is pretty slow, but is it fine to start a little below minimum with that powder?
 
Mauser_lover,

You're worrying about nothing. Whatever brass you have was annealed at the factory, and it is totally irrelevant as to whether one make of case is a "titch" harder or softer than another. Using a reloading manual, start with a starting load and work your way up while looking for accuracy and pressure signs.

Don
 
+1 ... just as with different powder lots, there will be some variations among lots of brass. With safe work-up of a load, they don't matter and won't be apparent except perhaps in the overall longevity of the case (but of course, the loads used and the chamber(s) have a lot more to do with that).
/Bryan
 
Is it harder, softer and thicker? Well--the answer is --maybe. The best way to find out is to take a commercial piece of brass (dead primer in), size it and weigh it empty. Write down the wieght. Next, fill that case with water and re-wiegh it. Write that down also. Now, size a piece of mil-surp brass (dead primer in) and repeat the wieghing process as you did with the commercial brass. The difference between the two cases is the actual grain wieght difference (if any).
 
homatok, I just re-read your post and now I am confused.... Am I looking for a weight difference in the case, or in the water weight?
If I am just looking for a difference in the case weight, why do I need to do the whole water thing.....

DoubleMag, I would really rather not, if I can help it, that seems like a lot of work just to tell if it is different. I probably will just reload standard ball slugs into it anyway, so I am not looking for the best of accuracy, or hottest loads.....
 
Normally I would not argue with USSR because he is right. But GI '06 brass most certainly can be heavier than Commercial brass. It is wise to reduce starting loads when using '06 or 7.62 Nato brass and work up from there.

I have not found Lake City 223 brass to be heavier than commercial. Federal brass is another story. I will not use Federal Brass in my AR’s.

I use alot of GI (lake City) brass for shooting High Power ith an AR, 308 M1 and '06 M1. I even shoot GI 45 ACP brass in my 45's. I started loading Lake City brass in 1987.

I found uniforming the primer pocket is about the best bang for the buck for GI brass.

I have not encountered any problems with heavy, thick, hard or soft GI brass compared to using commercial brass. I have found the GI brass tends to last a little longer when repeatedly fired out of a gas gun.

Depending on the type of powder you intend to use, I wouldn't reduce to below starting charges. Certain slow burning powders are not OK to reduce to below minimum charges. Those type powders become unpredictable when they are taken down to below published minimums.
Click to expand...

I will agree if using some ball powders. Stick powders are not typically overly sensitive to a 1 or 2 grain reduction in starting weights. If the brass you are using is heavier than what the published load was developed with may negate any possible problems starting at a lower weight. Powders that are sensitive to weight reduction will normally have a warning not to go below the published data.
 
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Which is true? Is military brass harder, softer, or thicker than commercial brass? Thanks.
Click to expand...
Yes. ;)

Don't fret over most of this stuff. Just know that military 30 caliber brass is "generally" heaver and therefore has "somewhat" less internal, and therefore generates "somewhat" more pressure for "generally" the same amount of powder as its lighter cousins.

You can either do the water weight comparision OR the cartridge case weight comparison. The first is an exact measure. the latter is a pretty good point-of-departure refence point. Again, don't fret over the decimal points.

Bottom Line is that I would probably start testing no higher than mid-load range out of my two standard refences: Lyman 48/49th and/or Sierra 4th/5th. Others might advise starting no higher than Absolute Minimum listed. YMMV, but barring something really unexpected, MIN load is usually very conservative for the `06
 
YMMV, but barring something really unexpected, MIN load is usually very conservative for the `06
Click to expand...

Agree. Have never found the need to start below the mid-way point in published load data for the '06. There's just not the big difference as there is with 7.62x51/.308.

Don
 
MEHavey said "Just know that military 30 caliber brass is "generally" heaver and therefore has "somewhat" less internal, and therefore generates "somewhat" more pressure for "generally" the same amount of powder as its lighter cousins."

Finding the exact difference is the reason for using the water method. Likely it is not critical unless you are loading at maximum. The water method is very useful (perhaps even critical" if you are forming brass from a "donor" case, where the process may well radically reduce the case interior.
 
I plan on reducing my starting loads by ten percent
Click to expand...
also said to reduce the military brass loads by fifteen percent.
Click to expand...
You are over-thinking this!
Do all that reducing and before long you won't have enough powder to get the bullet out of the barrel.

The Starting load is as low as you should go.
Do not reduce the starting load any further.
The starting load is Already reduced 10%.

And if you plan to use H-4831 anyway?
You can hardly stuff enough of it in a 30-06, even with a compressed charge & any bullet weight, to get excess pressure, or even normal pressure in any brass.

rc
 
I never said it was all three. I said the necks seemed softer, at least to me, when deburring following trimming. The body, at least the base, seems harder when I ream the primer pockets. And the case walls appear to be thicker, at least in the cases I cut lengthwise. I simply stated what my opinion was. If you differ, that's what makes the world go 'round. :p
 
Thank you, rc. I am over-thinking this.... But just to be clear, I will be pretty much safe with a mild load of H4831? And I shouldn't go lower than the starting loads in the manuals?

Thanks....

(more over-thinking to follow :D )
 
...pretty much safe with a mild load of H4831?
Click to expand...
I usually avoid absolutes, but you literally can't physically get enough H4831 (or IMR4831)
into a 30-06 case under a 150gr standard (or even 165gr) bullet to go much over 45-50,000psi.**
(30-06 is a 60,000psi-rated case).

Others chime in here yea or nay from their own experience.




** Lyman 49th & Quickload agree here

.
 
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Thats what I was saying in post #18.

Using H-4831, start at the listed start load.
Work up to the MAX load, which will be a compressed charge.
In any brass.

And you will still not be at MAX pressure for the 30-06.

H-4831 is very slow powder. You can get over max pressure in over-bore magnum calibers with it.

But not in the 30-06 with normal bullet weights.

rc
 
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