30 cal semi auto's & ammo Plus & Minuses

[Harve Curry]

What can a buyer expect from most of the choices of semi auto 30 caliber rifles as to reliability, using all available ammunition, and accuracy.

I enjoy shooting my M1 Garand, but you have to feed it the right ammo. Most 30-06 is loaded for bolt actions with slow burning powders that will bend the operating rod. I don't know about the M1's chambered for 308/7.62, will they digest any off the shelf 308 Winchester ammo?

I thought the AR 10 type rifles were the best for a 30 cal semi, but read they are finicky to ammunition, powder type, and dirt.

How about the SAR Sporter/FAL type rifles in 308/7.62NATO?
With their adjustable gas port can you hurt them with off the shelf ammo? They seem to always function.
I don't like the way the rear sight is wiggly on it's ramp. I do like how they recoil straight back, easier to stay on target then a M1.

M1A's.
HK's .

 

[AndyC]

Don't know about the others, but the FAL's adjustable gas-system means you can shoot almost anything through it and it'll cycle. The rear-sight being "wiggly" - well, it just needs to be tightened - mine's tight as a drum.

Accuracy - if you get one that does 2 MOA, you're doing well.

 

[USSR]

I don't know about the M1's chambered for 308/7.62, will they digest any off the shelf 308 Winchester ammo?

How about the SAR Sporter/FAL type rifles in 308/7.62NATO?
With their adjustable gas port can you hurt them with off the shelf ammo? They seem to always function.

Whether an M1 Garand is chambered in .30-06 or .308, the oprod remains the weak link and suitable powders should be used. While you can get away with a little more with a FAL, it still makes sense to use 4895 burn rate powders in them as well.

Don

 

[Harve Curry]

So if the criteria for buying a 30 cal rifle were:
reliability,
able to use all available ammunition, and accuracy (2 to 3 MOA).

Would the FAL rifle versions fill this?
British standard, metric, inches, FN, South American, Springfield Armory SAR Sporters?

 

[Organdonor]

A Mini-30 will be extremely reliable, eat just about any type of ammo, and give you between 2-4 MOA depending on how you've accurized it.

My BM AR-10 is super accurate and has given me zero problems shooting surplus ammo. I've never and failures or malfunctions with it... But YMMV.

 

[USSR]

So if the criteria for buying a 30 cal rifle were:
reliability,
able to use all available ammunition, and accuracy (2 to 3 MOA).

Would the FAL rifle versions fill this?

I would think so although, personally, I would not use heavy bullet (180 grain) .308 Win. loads in my FAL.

Don

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

may not be relative but some owners of Ruger Mini30's have found that installing an adjustable gas block ala FAL or heavy recoil spring and/or smaller I.D. gas bushing has benefited accuracy. theory is that the 'slamming' of the op rod causes vibrations that are detrimental. myself I tapped the gas pipe 8/32 and installed a set-screw to convert to straight pull bolt for bench rested target shooting with noticeable group tightening during load development/tryout. easy to remove for conversion back to semi-auto. there is definitely a difference in ammo, with Lapua and some Russki (Military Classic for one) being hotter than other brands PMC, Rem. and Win. included. Lapua is some good stuff in my M30.

 

[M1911]

I've got two Garands, an M1A, a FAL-clone, and an AR10.

I use military surplus ammunition in all of them. The Garands and M1A have been completely reliable. The M1A is a bit lighter and is easier to reload. The Garands and M1A have excellent sights and outstanding triggers. The M1A in particular seems to balance quite well.

The AR10 has an excellent trigger, excellent sights, and AR15 ergonomics. It is easy to reload. However the magazines (converted from M14 mags) are a weak point. It is easy to insert the magazines only part way in -- then your first shot fires, but the second round is not picked up. The AR10 is a bit heavy. It is far easier to scope my flat-top AR10 than the M1A or Garand.

I frankly do not understand the attraction of the FAL. The receiver is overly long, putting the front hand-guard too far in front. The sights are poor. The trigger is fair at best. The gas adjustment system is a significant drawback, IMHO. You must follow proper procedure to adjust the gas system. If you do not have enough energy going to the bolt carrier, you can get a partial extraction of the spent cartridge case. The case can then get stuck between the bolt-carrier and the dust cover. You are now in a really bad way. That has happened to me twice.

On the other hand, if you have too much energy going to the bolt carrier, you can rip the rim right off the cartridge, disabling the rifle in a different way.

In contrast, the M1, M1A, and AR10 require no adjustment to the gas system -- they simply just work.

Based on my experience with the 4 (and I own all 4 and have put many rounds downrange through each of them), I prefer the M1A. YMMV.

 

[DSAPT9]

All though I agree with M1911 if you fallow the instruction to the letter on adjusting the gas system on an FAL for each load it is a pain and will cause jamming if you change ammo. Or you can set the system to about 5 on most guns and they run almost everything with out a problem. Yes it hammers harder on some rounds and lighter on others, but so does every other gun with a gas system that is not adjustable.

I am a FAL fan because the controls fit me; I like the overall balance and the fact that Mags run 7 to 15 dollars (a good thing).

The nice thing about the adjustable gas system is when you get some strange ammo that is real heavy or real light you can make it shoot when other rifles won’t. I hunt with my FAL and run 180gr Federal all day long but I have shot and adjusted the gas system to match my hunting loads for the best function and accuracy.

My next choice would be a M1A/M14 type rifle they are rugged well built and accurate. Mags where very expensive for a while there but have come down in price as of late.

I do like the AR15 platform but have not been a fan of the 308 AR. The 5 or so I have enjoyed shooting all seem to have issues. I have not owned one but have friends that let me play with theirs. They seem to be accurate but use the same operating system as the AR only with a lot more gas and debris being pushed into the receiver. None of the issues are major I just don’t care for them. (Personal feelings)

I am also a 308 fan so the M1 Garand is out for me. I have not issues with it at all other than Cal.

 

[M1911]

the fact that Mags run 7 to 15 dollars (a good thing).

Cheap is good. However, I've only ever had one type of magazine fail and dump the spring, follower, base plate, and rounds at my feet -- that was a FAL magazine. YMMV.

M14 mags are great but, as you point out, very pricey.

 

[Deer Hunter]

I have my FAL's gas set on "5". It's worked with commercial hunting ammo, serbian hunting ammo, and SA surplus. In the three times it has not cycled properly (never messed with the gas setting), I can honestly blame the magazine ($4 Rhoadi mags).

Take a look over at FALfiles.com. All the info you'd ever want about a FN FAL.

The FAL is a great rifle that will serve you well.

 

[goon]

There are other options for FAL rear sights.
I went with a Para rear which has 150 and 250 yard aperatures rather than the stock ramp rear. I also didn't like how much play there was in it.

 

[dstorm1911]

Setting the gas system on a fal is nothing...... I mean your only going to adjust it when ya change to a significantly different ammo loading, and how technically challenged do ya have to be in order to get confused or perplexed over adjusting it after all its not really that complicated, set gas valve at smallest (not grenade setting) fire a shot if did not eject turn gas valve to next size fire shot if that one ejected your done otherwise set up to next and fire a shot............ not a whole lot of rocket science involved and how on earth anyone could think starting at the highest setting was a good idea is beyond me and that person probably needs some time out with a broken shell extracter to think bout if they really are qualified to be operating a MBR to begin with....... my 12 year old niece can set the gas valve on a FAL in 2 shots and I never showed her how she just figured it out from watching me the first time I went from S/A Surplus to some Winchester 180 hunting loads while she was present...... her only previous experience till then had been with WWI and WWII bolt actions and an AK..... she sets it so the spent cases land about 2 feet to her side so she can collect them up easier for reloading

MY .02 have quite a few FALs and L1A1s easily my favorite in the MBR class (as opposed to Assault rifle class such as AK) there is a very good reason the FAL pattern was issued by far more countries than the M1A1 and why it got the nickname "the right arm of the free world" the only other battle rifle to out produce it was the AK 47........

 

[M1911]

I mean your only going to adjust it when ya change to a significantly different ammo loading, and how technically challenged do ya have to be in order to get confused or perplexed over adjusting it after all its not really that complicated, set gas valve at smallest (not grenade setting) fire a shot if did not eject turn gas valve to next size fire shot if that one ejected your done otherwise set up to next and fire a shot.

The premier FAL company in the US is DS Arms. Here's what they say about adjusting the gas system on the FAL:

(1) The gas vent is directly behind the base of the front sight. We start the process with the gas-regulator set to the full-open position, which is # 7 on the gas-regulator dial. The vent-hole will be visibly open all the way. Next, we start to close off the gas-regulator vent by turning the dial clockwise two clicks, which will place it at # 6. You will now see that the vent hole is partially occluded. From here, we can start our live-fire, function testing.

(2) Charge a magazine with a single round of ammunition. Insert the magazine into the rifle and chamber the round. Holding the rifle in a normal, standing position (bench-resting is not recommended) aim into the impact area and fire one round. When the bolt fails to lock back, not enough gas is driving the piston into the bolt group for a complete cycle of operation. So, close the gas regulator another, single click, which will put it at 5 1/2, and then repeat the one-shot drill. Continue to close off the gas-regulator, a click at a time, until consistent (three in a row) bolt-lock is achieved

(2) When the bolt thus consistently locks to the rear after firing a single round, insert a magazine charged with five rounds, load the rifle, and fire all five in rapid succession. Once again, the bolt needs to unfailingly lock to the rear as the last round is fired.

(3) Once your rifle passes the 'five-round test,' close the gas-regulator two more clicks! The gas regulator is now 'set.' Just about all rifles we issue for student use have a final set at 4 to 4 . That is pretty standard.

(4) When the rifle gets hot, dry, and dirty, and starts short-cycling, you can use the gas-regulator dial to quickly make incremental increases in gas pressure, instantly restoring the rifle to normal functioning.

I don't recommend closing the gas-regulator completely, as you suggested in your last Quip, unless absolutely necessary. What concerns me is not excessive wear-and-tear on the rifle. The DSA/FAL is a robust, military rifle that is designed for heavy use in hostile environments. It will take whatever you can give it! Nor is my concern with accuracy. Practical accuracy is unaffected by gas-regulator adjustments. Nor is my concern with recoil attenuation. Soft recoil is nice, but we can all handle recoil. The realproblem is with case-extraction that is so violent it may result in cases being literally pulled apart as the bolt moves to the rear. The front half of the case may thus be left in the chamber, resulting in a stoppage that cannot be corrected in the short term.

Here's the procedure for adjusting the gas system on the M1A, M1, and AR10:

That was short, wasn't? No adjustment needed. As DS Arms note shows the FAL gas system can be misadjusted. It can be open too much or closed too much. Either will can lock up the gun catastrophically.

In contrast, the gas system on the M1A, M1, and AR10 never needs to be adjusted. It just works.

So what, exactly, is the advantage of the FAL gas system? I see no advantages and plenty of disadvantages. And I have personal experience with FAL jams. None, nadda, zippo.

The FAL is horribly overrated.

MY .02 have quite a few FALs and L1A1s easily my favorite in the MBR class (as opposed to Assault rifle class such as AK) there is a very good reason the FAL pattern was issued by far more countries than the M1A1 and why it got the nickname "the right arm of the free world" the only other battle rifle to out produce it was the AK 47.

Purchase decisions for small arms is heavily influenced by politics. Which explains why the US army is saddled with that abortion of a pistol from Beretta.

 

[Deer Hunter]

So I assume Rhoadasia and Austria had the same political background and reasons to adopt the FAL, right?

DSA goes on and on about how to figure out the gas system, and they did a thorough job of it. But really, my FAL eats anything and it's been set on 5 since I've had it. The FAL just plain works, and it's simple at that.

 

[goon]

Setting the gas on a FAL isn't as hard as that would indicate.
Also, if you want to use more powerful ammunition or heavier bullets, won't they damage the M1A and Garand? Actual damage to a gun would qualify as a stoppage.
The AR-10 maybe has an advantage if it just plain works, but does it handle heavier bullets OK? (I admit, I have no idea.)
The FAL can be tailored to work with pretty much anything, commercial or surplus, just by cranking the gas down a bit.
I'm not a FAL fanboy but they do seem to get by OK with their "shortcomings".

Politics can play a part, but the FAL has worked reliably in conditions far worse than most of our rifles will ever see.
Like so many things with guns, the operator seems to be a bigger part of the equation than the tool.

 

[dstorm1911]

M1911........ 30 years of playing with FALs and well.......... still ain't seen a catastrophic failure yet.... and thats 30 years of experience BUILDING them as well as getting ones built by matures to work correctly I've seen everything from folks using home made locking shoulders in home builds to my custom builds in assorted calibers using Rem 700 barrels .243 being the most popular not a single issue with any of em going bang when the trigger is pulled the adjustable gas system is totally reliable and simple enough that 10 year old rodesian bush kids can figure it out, if set to low the case doesn't eject ya cycle it and its clear...... ya are not adjusting the gas system in the middle of a firefight bud... ya adjust it when ya switch ammo and forget it, if set to high..... it simply ejects em a lil more aggressively but no where even close to what a CETME or G3 do upon ejection....... gee why are those roller locked rifles not ripping case heads off every other round?? MUCH harsher extraction than ya can get outa a fal....

Uhhhh I have however seen a ton of bent and broken OP rods in M1A1s however outa 30 years of smithing military weapons.....

Political huh?? gee was that why all those countries COPIED the FAL? They weren't buyin em bud they were BUILDING THEM..... its a totally proven design right up there with the AK, so far all your comments have shown regarding facts is....... your lack of actual experience or knowledge beyond reading DSAs literature regarding the FAL pattern rifle and bud... DSA gets so detailed and has so many warnings to cover their backside from libel suits or did ya think that nobody can fire handloads or surplus ammo in em either? if your gonna debate the FAL rifle friend your gonna needa get ALOT more actual hands on experience with one..... would ya like the laundry list of things that will qualify as as a catastrophic failure in an M1A1? very well documented laundry list in fact

 

[DSAPT9]

Now what is not to like? The only choice for a hunting rifle or at least in my humble opinion.

 

[DSAPT9]

Or is this more to your liking. This is my back up for heavy brush country. I did hunt with a M1A/M14 for about 6 years found it to be to heavy and hard to pack in heavy brush.

 

[USSR]

Also, MUCH easier to mount a scope to a FAL than a M1A.

Don

 

[M1911]

30 years of playing with FALs and well.......... still ain't seen a catastrophic failure yet.

With less than 1000 rounds through my FAL, I've had it jam 3 times due to partial extraction. I was able to clear two of the jams at the range. I was not able to clear the third. I should not have used the word catastrophic to describe that failure. But it did turn the gun into nothing more than a club until I could get it to a gunsmith.

DS Arms notes that misadjusting the gas regulator in the opposite direction can also result in a jam that can not be easily cleared:

The realproblem is with case-extraction that is so violent it may result in cases being literally pulled apart as the bolt moves to the rear. The front half of the case may thus be left in the chamber, resulting in a stoppage that cannot be corrected in the short term.

In contrast, I've never seen an M1A or M1 Garand jam. Not once, I've put thousands of rounds through mine.

DS Arms is on record saying that they have had many guns come back to them for warranty work, only to find that the gas regulator was not adjusted correctly.

All guns have their drawbacks. It is very hard to scope a Garand. You can scope an M1A, but it most of the mounts are poor. The AR10 has the same issues with the gas system that an AR15 has, and the magazines are problematic.

The FAL has its advantages, but also has disadvantages. It doesn't help prospective buyers decide which to get if people only cite the advantages and downplay the disadvantages.

 

[Slamfire]

I have M1a's, a FAL, and a PTR 91.

I got my last leg, which was a regional Gold, with the M1a, it is my first choice in a 30 caliber magazine fed rifle.

The FAL, I like it, already enough has been said about it.

The PTR91 is an American made version of the HK91. It is less costly and an excellent alternative if one is looking for a rugged battle rifle.

The trigger can be tuned by Bill Springfield ([email protected]) to as good a trigger pull as one of my match M1a's.

The sights are better, in my opinion, to my FAL sights, even though the windage adjustment is not as precise. (Nothing beats the M1a irons, they are the best)

My rifle is as accurate as my FAL. It is extremely easy to take down and clean. The only difficult part is getting the bolt back on the carrier.

The recoil has a stiffer slap than the FAL/M1a.

It is easy to scope, though I have not scoped mine, I see lots of pictures of scoped HK91's.

Brass gets beat up. However as nice as FAL brass looks like, case life in a FAL is very short.

My preferences 1) M1a, 2) FAL, 3) PTR-91.

All of the choices are good.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Can't ever say enough about the FAL.


Here is an interesting read....... "Ol Dirty": a FAL with 14,000+ rounds and no cleaning....

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68486&perpage=50&pagenumber=1

 

[DSAPT9]

M1911,
I guess you not happy with your FAL and its features I will respect that. But I do not feel the adjustable gas system is a disadvantage. I feel it is a plus for many reasons. I have shot loads that would only 3/4 cycle my M1A but with the adjustable gas system I could adjust it to run the ammo with out issue in the FAL. I have another FAL with 6000 plus rounds and not one jam, extraction problem, or failure to feed it is my practice rifle. It has been in several local 3-gum matches with out issue. I could not say that about the M1A/M14 rifles that I have owned. Don’t get me wrong I like the M1A/M14 but I do not feel it is the do all, be all that many think it is.

I will agree the FAL may not be as accurate but 3 of the 4 I have will shoot 1 in groups at 100 yards with good ammo and my practice rifle still holds 2 ½ inch at 100 yards on most days with any ammo. Good enough for hunting where I am from. The key is good ammo. The M1A/M14 seem to hold tighter groups with a broader ammo range compared to the FAL but I still do not find that to be a disadvantage. It is a Battle rifle.

I also guess it is hard for me to talk about disadvantages when I feel there are none. But what the hay we all have our opinions as to what we are looking for in a rifle.

Have a great weekend.