30 carbine bullet question

[MonkTx]

Lately I've been wondering about the non-full metal jacket bullets terminal performance in 30 carbine like the 100 gr Hornady short jacket, the various 110 soft points and the 110 grain Speer varminter. Do any of you know if they expand well at carbine velocities, is that even their intended purpose? How are they on hogs?

Stuff like this slowly comes to me decades after I started loading them.

Thanks,
Monte

 

[Akula69]

Generally, the kinetic force imparted by the slow (1900-2100 FPS) 110 grain projectile is not good for anything other than small (think squirrel) game. While it was used in WW2 as a rear echelon weapon, the Korean conflict saw multiple complaints the round could not penetrate the winter coats of the Chi-coms, even at close range. While many folks use the .30 carbine 110 grain FMJ rounds as a home defense weapon because of it non-existent recoil (I've shot mine one handed without difficulty) I would suggest hunting anything with a thick hide or layers of fat and muscle beyond 10-20 feet would be ineffective.

Having said that, if you are able to find any Hornady #3005 (catalog number) or Speer round nose soft tip projectiles (other than on the Gunstealer site) please let me know.

 

[N555]

Yes. Expanding ammo fixes pretty much all the problems with 30carb.
Shoot a milk jug full of water with ball ammo and it splits and punches straight through. Expanding ammo explodes the milk jug.
Expanding ammo will turn something small like a squirrel into meat spray.
30 carbine with expanding ammo kills coyotes just fine, range is limited and it doesn't try to turn them inside out like a hot 6.5mm.
I got my 30 carbine after I shot a coyote from about 4 feet away with a 22lr pistol.
I wouldn't recommend 30 carbine for any kind of pig or bear.
Here is luck gunners 30 carbine article. Testing expanding ammo.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/30-carbine-ammo-testing/

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Most factory .30 Carbine from an 18 inch barrel runs about 1950 feet per second velocity with a 110 grain bullet for 929 foot pounds energy.
Some run 2000 fps for 977 ft/lb.

That is roughly half the published energy of a .30-30 Winchester or one third the energy of a .30-06 Springfield.

According to a data set tracking actual shootings, .30 M1 Carbine with full metal jacket bullets matches the effectiveness of a .38 revolver with 158 gr round nose lead bullets and with 110 gr hollowpoint bullets is equivalent of a .357 Magnum revolver with 125gr hollowpoint bullets. If invited to a feral hog hunt, I'd take take my .30-30 Marlin 336 with 170 gr bullets. So far we have avoided the feral hog plague locally.

The Winchester 110 gr Jacketed Soft Hollow Point factory rounds do expand.
I would expect 100 gr short jacket round lead nose, 110 gr jacketed soft point and the 110 grain Speer varminter would expand loaded to standard .30 Carbine velocity.

 

[AJC1]

Check the numbers on the bullets you intend to use because 30 carbine is faster than 357 mag and is downplayed.
Check what is chambered in the bfr.
Look at data on which bullets require gas checks and why.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Lately I've been wondering about the non-full metal jacket bullets terminal performance in 30 carbine like the 100 gr Hornady short jacket, the various 110 soft points and the 110 grain Speer varminter. Do any of you know if they expand well at carbine velocities, is that even their intended purpose? How are they on hogs?

Stuff like this slowly comes to me decades after I started loading them.

Thanks,
Monte

Works about like a .357. Shot placement is a lot more critical but down here pigs are vermin so you can use FMJ on them. I think they do a little better, especially against bone and cartilage, than the JHP’s.

 

[lightman]

I wouldn't say that it was a rear echelon weapon. Dad was a radio operator in Korea and carried one by choice. I guess the weight of the radio made the carbine's lighter weight welcome. Of course, he carried an M-2 not a M-1. He liked it well enough that he bought an M-1 after he got home to Deer hunt with and He killed Deer with it. Just keep in mind its limited range.

To answer the original question, I've never recovered a soft point carbine bullet so I don't know how they expand.

 

[Akula69]

I wouldn't say that it was a rear echelon weapon. Dad was a radio operator in Korea and carried one by choice. I guess the weight of the radio made the carbine's lighter weight welcome. Of course, he carried an M-2 not a M-1. He liked it well enough that he bought an M-1 after he got home to Deer hunt with and He killed Deer with it. Just keep in mind its limited range.

To answer the original question, I've never recovered a soft point carbine bullet so I don't know how they expand.

Please tell your father thanks for his service. While it is true it was a much lighter weapon, it was requested and designed that way by DOD for the mortar crews, officers, tankers, and radiomen. M2 was a whole 'nother beast...and I'd love to put my hands on one.

Works about like a .357. Shot placement is a lot more critical but down here pigs are vermin so you can use FMJ on them. I think they do a little better, especially against bone and cartilage, than the JHP’s.

Shot placement on medium game is critical with this projectile. I would not use it for larger game.

 

[lightman]

Please tell your father thanks for his service. While it is true it was a much lighter weapon, it was requested and designed that way by DOD for the mortar crews, officers, tankers, and radiomen. M2 was a whole 'nother beast...and I'd love to put my hands on one.

Pop has been gone for a few years but Thanks. I guess I mis-spoke on the M-1 and M-2 thing. I was thinking that the selective fire version of the M-1 carbine was the M-2 carbine. I guess the M2 was the 50 caliber browning? And YES, I would like to play with one of those too!

 

[TTv2]

My goodness, could people please stay on topic and answer the OP's question on the performance of lead pointed bullets in .30 Carbine on hog and other game and not general combat use in WW2 and Korea?

OP, I've have wondered about the use of these bullets as well and given the velocities involved with .30 Carbine I do think they have the ability to expand, but I don't think they're going to be all that useful on hog because the penetration isn't going to be there other than for broadside shots. The 100gr Speer Plinker was made just for that, plinking. The half jacket was cheaper to make and for shooting steel the bullet doesn't fragment as much. The 110gr was made for varmints and maybe some smaller deer.

 

[AJC1]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010525182
I've been really curious about these bullets. The reviews when I find them are good performance in 300bo and 30-30 not exactly speed demons. They are shooting and harvesting so it meets your need.

 

[lightman]

My goodness, could people please stay on topic and answer the OP's question on the performance of lead pointed bullets in .30 Carbine on hog and other game and not general combat use in WW2 and Korea?

You are welcome to skip my post if you wish!

 

[Akula69]

My goodness, could people please stay on topic and answer the OP's question on the performance of lead pointed bullets in .30 Carbine on hog and other game and not general combat use in WW2 and Korea?

OP, I've have wondered about the use of these bullets as well and given the velocities involved with .30 Carbine I do think they have the ability to expand, but I don't think they're going to be all that useful on hog because the penetration isn't going to be there other than for broadside shots. The 100gr Speer Plinker was made just for that, plinking. The half jacket was cheaper to make and for shooting steel the bullet doesn't fragment as much. The 110gr was made for varmints and maybe some smaller deer.

Thanks for your input, and reference to my post. A few points after your personal opinion was inserted:

1) The reference to the usefulness of the round is directly related to its kinetic energy translation to target, and penetrating power. The Korean war jacket reference is a widely used example of the lack thereof, and why the .30 caliber carbine is not widely recommended for hunting. If the round cannot penetrate 2 inches of compressed cotton fabric...does that not give a clear picture of its utility as a hunting round?
2) The GI issue of the weapon was apropos because most riflemen were issued the M1 Garand directly because of the weapon weight issue and projectile performance.
3) The 100 grain Speer round would be an exceptionally poor hunting projectile - even if it penetrated it would most likely wound and not kill. The round nose soft point is the correct round for hunting, and does provide expansion (as I referenced in my post).

A difference in the way an explanation is framed. If you want "Just the facts" in posts, perhaps you may want to avoid personal opinions.

 

[N555]

Well if it was really extremely cold in Korea and the 30 carbine didn't put down enemies it was more likely the use of ballpowder and it's high nitroglycerin content. Once you get below 0F it's almost like nitroglycerin forgets that it's nitroglycerin and you see how temperature sensitive ballpowder really is.
This why I'm slowly switching to single base or low NG powders. Plus ballpowder is dirty and I like silencers. Ballpowder and silenced autos are a soot nightmare.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Thanks for your input, and reference to my post. A few points after your personal opinion was inserted:

1) The reference to the usefulness of the round is directly related to its kinetic energy translation to target, and penetrating power. The Korean war jacket reference is a widely used example of the lack thereof, and why the .30 caliber carbine is not widely recommended for hunting. If the round cannot penetrate 2 inches of compressed cotton fabric...does that not give a clear picture of its utility as a hunting round?
2) The GI issue of the weapon was apropos because most riflemen were issued the M1 Garand directly because of the weapon weight issue and projectile performance.
3) The 100 grain Speer round would be an exceptionally poor hunting projectile - even if it penetrated it would most likely wound and not kill. The round nose soft point is the correct round for hunting, and does provide expansion (as I referenced in my post).

A difference in the way an explanation is framed. If you want "Just the facts" in posts, perhaps you may want to avoid personal opinions.

I’ve stayed out of this mainly because we always open the same ol’ can of worms. No one seems to answer why the M1 Carbine seemed to work quite effectively on Germans, Italians, and Japanese, but somehow failed to work on North Koreans. In my reading I have come across some really good explanations for the bad reputation that arose after Korea. The first reason relates to many mechanical failures. Bolt springs and magazine springs that were fatigued during and after WWII resulted in many failures to feed and fire until the problem was discovered and rectified. As to the failure to stop enemy combatants, one big reason was given to be the clothing that the North Koreans wore during the winter months, but not because it stopped bullets from penetrating. The heavy quilted winter clothing that the North Koreans wore added significant volume to their slight frames, and many impacting rounds simply missed vital organs, and sometimes missed the body altogether even though it appeared to hit significant mass. Also, the widespread use of full auto during Korea resulted in more misses than hits. This wasn’t a big problem during WWII when most carbines were semi-auto.

The ball powder used in the .30 carbine also played a role. In moderate and warm temperatures, it worked quite effectively, but in the -50 F temperatures of the Chosin Reservoir, sometimes the powder lacked enough energy to even cycle the bolt. The larger weapons suffered from this as well, but since they were much more powerful, the effects were not as noticeable.

And finally, the carbine was being used for purposes it was not designed for, and at ranges beyond what it was effectively capable.

 

[N555]

Yeah a warn out gun or a bad mag, can't hit a point target with full auto isn't a design flaw.
I should have busted out the m1 carbine when it was about -5F after Christmas just to see what happened.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

My goodness, could people please stay on topic and answer the OP's question on the performance of lead pointed bullets in .30 Carbine on hog and other game and not general combat use in WW2 and Korea?

OP, I've have wondered about the use of these bullets as well and given the velocities involved with .30 Carbine I do think they have the ability to expand, but I don't think they're going to be all that useful on hog because the penetration isn't going to be there other than for broadside shots. The 100gr Speer Plinker was made just for that, plinking. The half jacket was cheaper to make and for shooting steel the bullet doesn't fragment as much. The 110gr was made for varmints and maybe some smaller deer.

Actually, having been there/done that, I posted my experience using a carbine for exactly what the OP asked: hunting wild pigs. In my experience, the 115gr Speer bullets, both the FMJ and JHP, will put a pig down easily - IF you make the right shot. Go for a front-side head shot and the bullet skims the skull without penetrating; go for a broadside chest shot and hit the shoulder gristle and you’ll roll the pig, then he’s off for the races. The quartering shot through the chest and guts is what you want. Take away the pump house and air basket and down goes piggy in a heap. That’s why I prefer the FMJ - it goes in behind the last rib comes out clavicle, tearing up everything in its path on the way.