300 Rum

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TX1911fan

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Ok, I hope I'm not making you guys sick of my questions, but I am still working on this rifle business. I went ahead and did a big spreadsheet with graphs of a bunch of different cartridges. I included 7mm mag as a baseline, and then compared 300 Win Mag, 300 Wthby, 300 Remington Ultra Mag, 300 WSM, 325 WSM, 338 Win Mag, and a 338 Remington Ultra Mag (I have the spreadsheet if anyone wants it).

What I came up with is that the 300 Wthby is a pretty damn good cartridge, in all bullet weights. However, the 300 RUM performed as well or better, in all bullet weights, especially at 250 yards or less.

Also, Remington has introduced their 3 power level concept, making the RUM similar to 30.06 at the low power level, 300 Win Mag at the medium power level, and 300 RUM (300 Wthby) at the top. See http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/power_level.asp

So, what do you guys think of the 300 Remington Ultra Mag?
 
The question I have is: What is your application?

For hunting, I have a hard time believing any North-American animal would be able to tell the difference between a properly placed from from a 300WinMag vs. 300 Wby vs. 300 RUM, if shot within 250 yards as you say.
 
My main purpose in buying the rifle is to go on an Alaskan black bear hunt next year. I don't hunt all that often, so I want a rifle that has broad application, rather than getting specific rifles for different game. I'd like to be able to hunt bear if I want, elk or moose or caribou, mulies and white tail. If I can use the same rifle, that would be my preference.
 
Since I actually like my shoulder and use it in many activities, I've learned to stay away from magnums. I guess it's nice to have a .30 cal. capable of varmint gun trajectories, but there is a premium paid in shooting comfort. I'm 6'2", 275 lbs and still I get sore after just a few mag rounds. There is precious little in north America that a well placed .243, .270, .308 or 30-06 round won't stop without the punishment.

That said, if I could only keep one rifle, it'd be my .35 Whelen. It actually recoils less than my 30-06. Inside 300 yds it's plenty flat and hits plenty hard.

I tend to think that if the shooter learns a particular favorite gun well enough and earns bragging rights through understanding your gun and relying on good shot placement instead of bullet speed, the mags are not necessary.

Just my .02. Put $1.27 with it you can buy a cup of coffee in some places.:)
 
I went through this a while back as I was contemplating the purchase of a bolt action .30 caliber hunting rifle for Arizona elk and black bear. I ended up just sticking with my .308 M1A for right now, but here's my impressions:

.300winmag is really the defacto .30 caliber magnum out there. You go to Walmart, Sportsman's Warehouse, the local gun shop, whatever... they will have at least a box or two of .300winmag. The .300 Weatherby mag and the .300RUM are not as prevalent. I did my check against several stores, and they didn't have either of these two cartridges in stock.

So... commercial "I need it now" availability winner = .300WinMag

What about load efficiency and data availability? Granted, all three have well documented loads available. But, the .300winmag has been a long distance shooter's choice since its inception. There are a lot of competitors who have published a lot of load information for this cartridge. Also, the .300winmag uses less powder than either the RUM or Weatherby magnum. With a 165gr bullet and H1000 powder, the winmag takes 79gr, the RUM takes 94gr and the Weatherby takes 84gr. Granted, the RUM is the fastest of the three, but that extra 15gr of powder generates a lot more heat and barrel wear than the winmag generates. All for a difference in velocity of 178fps at max loadings for each cartridge (3135-2957). Me? I don't want to change my barrel every couple thousand rounds. I gave the nod to the winmag here in my evaluation.

The winmag also had the greatest availability from manufacturers. I could get a Remington, Savage, Winchester or Browning just off a quick search. The Weatherby and RUM cartridges are more specialized and I could not find a readily-made factory offering from anyone but Weatherby and Remington. Granted, when I looked I was also a southpaw with a want for a southpaw rifle.... but the best (i.e. most) options available were for the 300winmag.
 
3200fps magnums have their place, but it isn't as a do everything rifle. They are specialized long range guns. Inside 300 yards they don't shoot flatter so as to matter or kill any better. They just kick more, need expensive premium bullets, and ruin a lot of meat.

Remington's loaded down ammo alleviates that with the ultra mag, but if you're going to shoot the equivalent of a 30-06 (which is a pretty good thing to shoot) why not buy the real thing with ammo available at every gas station for $15 a box?
 
So I guess my question is: will a .308 or 30.06 be enough for Alaskan black bear at 250 yards or less. I don't particularly care for recoil either, but I want enough gun for the job. I haven't done it before, but imagine looking for a wounded black bear isn't high on the list of smart or safe things to do. I know shot placement counts, but for an animal that thick, I assume you need some serious punch.
 
So I guess my question is: will a .308 or 30.06 be enough for Alaskan black bear at 250 yards or less. I don't particularly care for recoil either, but I want enough gun for the job. I haven't done it before, but imagine looking for a wounded black bear isn't high on the list of smart or safe things to do. I know shot placement counts, but for an animal that thick, I assume you need some serious punch.

Yes they will... the .30-06 is probably a better choice of the two calibers listed. It has more case capacity than the .308 and can therefore accomodate HEAVIER bullets than the .308, more easily. The down-loaded RUM would also be a good choice if you can find a platform you particularly like (and ammo)... cartridge pressure would be very low and non-punishing. Problem would be finding low-pressure, down-loaded RUM ammo with a heavy 180+ grain bullet.

Were I Alaskan black bear hunting, I would hope that my guide had something on hand capable of taking care of big brown trouble (i.e. .45/70 or 12guage slugs), but I would not feel amiss with an '06 on my shoulder loaded up with 180 or 200gr big game bullets if I was out looking for 500-ish pound black bear.

I took my .308 out with 150gr bullets looking for black bear in AZ... but our bear only hit about 300 pounds at most.

Lots of Canadian guides back in the early 20th century were using Enfield-actioned .303 british rifles with 200gr solids. Not a fast load, but it worked well on north american big game. You don't HAVE to have the .30 magnums to take big game up there.
 
Black bear aren't grizzlies. They're aren't any tougher in Alaska than they are in the lower 48 and 308/30-06 class rounds (and 30-30s for that matter) have been putting them down for 100 years.

Walking around the woods in Alaska always has the off chance of running into an angry grizzly no matter what the tag in your pocket says, in which case a .308 would feel distinctly petite, but any chambering to give a meaningful step up in that situation will be shoulder punishing overkill for the assorted grazing animals you plan to hunt the other 99% of the time.
 
Black bear aren't grizzlies. They're aren't any tougher in Alaska than they are in the lower 48 and 308/30-06 class rounds (and 30-30s for that matter) have been putting them down for 100 years.

Respectfully, I have to disagree with that.

Biggest blacks I've seen down here in the high Arizona rim country have been about 200-250 pounds. I can guess that they get a bit bigger, but I haven't heard of any 500+ pound bears from any of my hunting buddies or gun store lurkers. I would assume that would go for Utah, Nevada, California, New Mexico, etc.

The only black bear I've seen in coastal Washington state was almost 5 feet tall standing on all 4 legs on the ground, and must have weighed in around 800 pounds. She was a mammoth. She could have been an anomoly, but I don't think so. Food is just more plentiful in the coastal mountains, than it is inland. More berries, more rabbits, more birds, more bugs, more fish.

I don't assume that all coastal blacks are 800 pound bears, but I do assume they are bigger than anything I've ever seen in the american southwest at least.

My limited experiences with 4 different bears. Not an extensive library, but take them for what they're worth.

ETA: Regarding caliber... a .308 or '06 will be getting a bit small for an 800 pound black bear, IMO. As long as you don't run into a freak of nature and your targeted bear is below about 600 pounds in size, it should be able to do the job though, IMO.
 
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.300 RUM I've always considered as a paper performer. Have you considered the .35 Whelen or .35 Rem? Whelen is my warhorse, B@dazz pig bustin machine. You can get 300gr bullets for the Whelen, I think maybe heavier too, but I haven't looked.
 
I don't know anything about bears in the southwest, but eastern blacks are about as big as they come - the alltime record 800 and some pound specimen was taken in NC - and I have never heard anything about them being tough to kill.

Course I have never talked to someone who took one of those atypical 800 pounders either, and they may be a bit hardier.

I would want better than a 30-30 for that much bear to go through, but 30-06 is more gun than most people - and especially gunwriters - give it credit for.
 
If you don't hunt that much, you ought to just get yourself a lower-priced Savage with accu-trigger in 300 Win Mag, maybe a nice Nikon Buckmasters 3x9 scope, and call it a day. I doubt 200-300 fps is going to make that much difference, and the 300 Win Mag ammo will be way easier to find at Wal-Mart or the local gun store. Just my 2 cents!!!!:)
 
I have, and enjoy a .300RUM.
However, there is a lot of wisdom in most of the previous postings.
I would for your purposes, make a round of most of the pawn shops and used gun racks at gun shops NOW and find yourself a good used .300winmag. Prices are low right now in off season. I saw a used "store branded" Husquevarna in .300winmag yesterday for $275.00 and had an older Redfield scope on it. Get the idea ??!!

Don't get me wrong, I have, and killed my first deer with a .30/06 a LONG time ago. I also have a .338/06 which WILL go to Alaska with me when I do finally make the trek. Also many other cartridges in the rifle inventory. But after many years as a Game Warden, I think your best choice for stated purpose is the .300winmag. Recoil is tolerable, ammo available, and unquestioned effectiveness.

I like the .300RUM, but, the recoil is excessive for what it offers, ammo MUCH more expensive, and much HARDER to find.

I found my rifle at a pawn shop for ~$200, mainly because the ammo is very expensive. The rifle is a Savage M110. After some trigger tweaking, and free floating the barrel, it's a decent shooter delivering 1.25"groups at 100yds with ammo it likes. (I also installed a "Kickeeze" pad for obvious reasons) My prefered load is the main reason I grabbed up the rifle- I wanted something to utilize some of the very cheap .50BMG surplus powders that are still available. I bought 16lbs of WC-860 (Widner's Shooters Supply) for $50! I'm using a quantity of Remington 180gr CorLokts I got for under $10/100. Cost of ammo is less than loading for a .308win. My load is 105.0gr WC-860 for accuracy (moa) and duplicates factory published ballistics. Max is 107.0gr for 3,350fps mv. Believe it or not, the CorLokt is more accurate than either the 180gr Nosler Part., 180gr Sierra BTSP, or the Nosler 180g Ballistic tip. On the single deer I've shot with it, the CorLokt didn't show any propensity to blow up, but an example of one dosen't mean much. Shot was intentionally a raking torso shot, on purpose to see if bullet would "blow apart", (deer was walking away, at 40yds, and mv. of 3,350fps I felt was a good "test" of the bulllet!, exit wound was ~3", and deer was DRT, even though only a single rib was hit on entry, and another on exit. There is something to the "shock" potential of this cartridge. (Note: recoil is about like a 3.5" 12ga magnum turkey load in a Remington M870 pump. Not "lethal", but very substantial)

However, the rubber cushioned objective of my scope took the hide off the bridge of my nose, the rifle thereby drawing blood on both ends!!!! Hence, I've not been readily inclined to hunt with it again on something like "mere little deer"!

My thoughts are that a good used .300winmag will be your best bet. You get the lighter recoil, equivalent to a really light .30/06 mountain rifle (ie:Remington M700 mountain rifle, or Ti model), much more readily available ammo (if you don't reload), in a greater choice of loadings. Power is adequate for any intended use in N. America.

My older brother spent a number of years stationed at Elmendorf AFB in late '70's and early '80's. His son is now stationed in Ft. Greely. Both agree that the .30/06 is still the gold standard with the "residents", and the Nosler 180gr Partition the bullet of choice for inland hunting. For Coastal bears, the 200gr Partition or a Barnes-X might be a little better choice. While my brother was in AK, he observed that most Residents used .308's or .30/06, the Indians used .303brit, .30Krag's, .300Savage, or .30/30's. Non-Residents used "Magnums" as he put it. He used the .30/06 with 180gr Partitons (factory loads because all his reloading equipment was in storage in lower 48) with total satisfaction.
 
i LOVE the RUM, wouldn't trade mine for the world. but practical it ain't. the only hunting uses that take advantage of it's long range around here (KY) are hill top to hill top deer. it's really a waste in heavy brush under 75 yards. still i can't help but take it with me. i've had two across the holler and one open cornfield shot that was 473 yards, acording to google earth, were my sako has earned it's keep. outside of that it's range work and braggin rights(if they don't think your crazy for shooting a cannon) it's like the .50 cal, nobody hunts with these guns, but there's a whole lotta people shooting them. they're just so cool and impressive people can't leave them alone. if you want practical, the 300winmag can't be beat. it will take anything america has to offer game wise.
 
I had to read the post twice.
Can't believe the 338 didn't get a reply. Not a "target" cartridge, but incredibly effective on everything and anything. Big and little bullets available.
The 338wm and 338 Ultra mag are available in 180gr and 250gr bullets.
That said, the 300wm would get the nod for your specs IMHO.
WSM rounds are a little hard to get anywhere-anytime, as are Ultra Mag offerings. I shoot Ultra Mags and reload ~ can't afford to any other way.
 
So, sounds like the consensus is either 300 Win Mag or 30.06. Given that my friend is a huge 300 Wthby fan, he'll probably tell me he won't take me with a 30.06, so I may compromise with a 300 Win Mag. That caliber seems to be pretty versatile, easy to find, with less recoil.
 
I have always liked my .300rum and bought it with the intention of going Elk hunting one day. So far that has not become a reality so I am thinking of selling mine and getting an M1A. I think it would be great for what you want to use it for.

The .300 rum is a nice long range cartridge and it is easy to load for it. I have done some range testing at ranges out to 500 yards and have been very pleased with how it performs.

A pic of mine.....
Sako 75 hunter .300rum with Swarovski 6-24x50 pro-hunter scope.
Sakopic3.gif
 
The only thing we sell more in my corner of the Gun World than .300 RUM is .300 WSM.
I'm also rather fond of .30-378 Wby Magnum. While the RUM is close, the .30-378 does outperfrom it, giving it the edge especially out there at the distances people are saying they are killing elk at. They also caught fish this big, but that's another story.
 
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