300 Win Mag vs. .30-06...Which would you choose?
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Kentucky_Rifleman
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Basic physics would seem to indicate that the recoil would be the same; two equal actions (Primer A, igniting Powder B, pushing identical 150 gr bullets out of a barrel at 3000 fps, say) would generate the exact same amount of reaction (recoil) , assuming the rifles were identical.
I left my Lee manual at work. I'll look at the pressure reduction tables tomorrow. It may be that you're right, and I'm certainly no laboratory physicist, but it seems to go against common sense. If you reduced a load, and lowered pressure, thereby reducing recoil, wouldn't that invariably drop muzzle velocity as well? We were discussing identical rifles and circumstances, including velocity, as a factor in recoil, yes?
KR
I left my Lee manual at work. I'll look at the pressure reduction tables tomorrow. It may be that you're right, and I'm certainly no laboratory physicist, but it seems to go against common sense. If you reduced a load, and lowered pressure, thereby reducing recoil, wouldn't that invariably drop muzzle velocity as well? We were discussing identical rifles and circumstances, including velocity, as a factor in recoil, yes?
KR
Zak Smith
Member
If you use the exact same load in .300WM that you use in .30-06 or .308, it will not hit the same pressure because the initial volume is less, and it will probably not match the same velocity.
However, you can build reduced loads in the larger case that duplicate the ballistics of a smaller case - it just won't be the same load you'd use in the smaller case. In this situation, there is a component of impulse that results from the powder mass (now gas) being expelled from the muzzle (at an escape velocity higher than the bullet velocity). However, the difference in recoil resulting from this difference in combusted-powder mass will be minute - just a little more than the difference in powder mass itself as a proportion of the total powder mass plus bullet mass (it is more because the gas velocity is higher than the bullet velocity).
However, you can build reduced loads in the larger case that duplicate the ballistics of a smaller case - it just won't be the same load you'd use in the smaller case. In this situation, there is a component of impulse that results from the powder mass (now gas) being expelled from the muzzle (at an escape velocity higher than the bullet velocity). However, the difference in recoil resulting from this difference in combusted-powder mass will be minute - just a little more than the difference in powder mass itself as a proportion of the total powder mass plus bullet mass (it is more because the gas velocity is higher than the bullet velocity).
Maverick223
Member
Sure can, and Mr. Newton can help...every action has a reaction equal in magnitude and opposite in direction (3rd Law of Motion) or more precisely the recoil is equivalent to the maximum (muzzle) energy. So with everything being equal (stock design, weight, recoil pad, and other recoil reducing measures) save for case capacity and pressure, the perceived recoil should be the same; and even if the rifle design differs as it often does, the actual recoil will be nearly equivalent. The one caveat that may effect recoil is case efficiency, however larger cartridges are generally less efficient than smaller ones (even with reduced loads, though it is more pronounced with a full charge), thus requiring more powder, thus increasing the recoil (both actual and perceived). Note that this small factor is often negligible when compared to other factors.
Al LaVodka
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Maybe its that extra airspace in the case that makes the recoil feel less and the 300 WM better? Must be. I still think the .30-06 and its versatile improved version are good 'n plenty despite actually being a century-old real old-time hunter.
Speaking of which, I missed the drug revolution going on across the steeet from the Cheesehead Capital Building. Also never ate the hemp-laced icecream at UW's Aggie store nor drank the Kool-Aid. But what's good for me obviously isn't for everyone...
Al
Speaking of which, I missed the drug revolution going on across the steeet from the Cheesehead Capital Building. Also never ate the hemp-laced icecream at UW's Aggie store nor drank the Kool-Aid. But what's good for me obviously isn't for everyone...
Al
Old Time Hunter
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FYI, pressure is a function of volume, the Win 300 Mag cartridge has more volume. Therefore the gas has an opportunity to expand within the cartridge, however slightly, before the bullet even starts to move. Once the gas moves the bullet all things should be equal as gas is moving within equalizing volumes, just at different distances from the bolt face. An example:
Using the same 180 grain bullet in both the .30-06 and the .300 WinMag and using Hodgdon's H4350 powder a max load for the .30-06 is, from page 451 in Lee's Second Edition of Modern Reloading shows:
Velocity: 2798 fps
Pressure: 59,160 PSI
On page 473, the 300 WinMag with the same Hodgdon's 4350 powder and a 180 grain jacket bullet has the max load as such:
Velocity: 2918 fps
Pressure: 62,933 PSI
But, by reducing the max charge by just two grains on the Win 300 Mag, using the same powder and same bullet you end up with this:
Velocity: 2,836 fps
Pressure: 58,824 PSI Already lower than the .30-06
Lower it by one more grain and this is the result:
Velocity: 2,795 fps
Pressure: 56,871 FPS
So wouldn't common sense dictate that a projectile moving equivalent velocities but using 3000 PSI less to do it would not have less felt recoil?
Using the same 180 grain bullet in both the .30-06 and the .300 WinMag and using Hodgdon's H4350 powder a max load for the .30-06 is, from page 451 in Lee's Second Edition of Modern Reloading shows:
Velocity: 2798 fps
Pressure: 59,160 PSI
On page 473, the 300 WinMag with the same Hodgdon's 4350 powder and a 180 grain jacket bullet has the max load as such:
Velocity: 2918 fps
Pressure: 62,933 PSI
But, by reducing the max charge by just two grains on the Win 300 Mag, using the same powder and same bullet you end up with this:
Velocity: 2,836 fps
Pressure: 58,824 PSI Already lower than the .30-06
Lower it by one more grain and this is the result:
Velocity: 2,795 fps
Pressure: 56,871 FPS
So wouldn't common sense dictate that a projectile moving equivalent velocities but using 3000 PSI less to do it would not have less felt recoil?
Zak Smith
Member
If by felt recoil you are referring to total rearward momentum of the rifle, then what does the internal pressure have to do with it, given the same momentum exiting the muzzle forward?
Maverick223
Member
No, pressure has nothing to do with it. The bolt thrust may be slightly less, though I doubt it would be because of the additional case head area in the magnum cartridge, and I don't feel like calculating it. Point is pressure has nothing to do with recoil. Take a large cartridge at very low pressure, and a small cartridge with extremely high pressure, it will be the exact same recoil if you negate the additional mass due to the additional powder required from the less efficient (larger) case.
Besides, if you are going to download a magnum cartridge to a lower power level in an equivalent cartridge, why not just go with the original? The original load (in this case the .30-06) will do the exact same thing at less expense (even if you reload you have to buy cases, and the magnum will consume more powder), and generally in a lighter smaller package.
Now lets get back to the essence of the debate of .30-06 vs. the .300WM.
Kentucky_Rifleman
Member
There you go, enough nits harvested today!
I've been reading this thread and several others, so forgive me if someone already mentioned this, but I'd go with the rifle I liked best instead of the caliber. If you can buy rifle A in .300WM & rifle B in .30-06 for the same price, pick the rifle that suits you best. I can't think of a long action rifle model that hasn't been chambered in the .06 since the cartridge came out. There have been some manufacturers who for whatever reason didn't chamber the .300.
Old Time Hunter
Member
Moment of acceleration.
Zak Smith
Member
Given less overall momentum at the end of the event, I don't think a higher peak level of acceleration will cause a higher level of perceived recoil. I believe the the opposite is true, actually.
I believe a longer push at a lower sustained max acceleration that has more total momentum will have more perceived recoil than an even with a higher peak recoil but less overall impulse. I base this on shooting a variety of small and large bore rifle and pistol cartridges.
In any case, the most accepted model of recoil - Free Recoil Energy - does not depend on any pressure curve information.
I believe a longer push at a lower sustained max acceleration that has more total momentum will have more perceived recoil than an even with a higher peak recoil but less overall impulse. I base this on shooting a variety of small and large bore rifle and pistol cartridges.
In any case, the most accepted model of recoil - Free Recoil Energy - does not depend on any pressure curve information.
Old Time Hunter
Member
I guess after 30+ years as an engineer, I stand corrected by laymen...have a great day.
Maverick223
Member
Probably won't be the last time either.
I don't know about Kentucky Rifleman, but Zak and myself are also engineers. There are probably scores of other engineers on here as well...what is your point...are engineers somehow infallible? I have been wrong before, and if I live long enough I will be again, heck I'm in the business of fixing other engineers' mistakes.
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wyohome
Member
I am one of the dummies that had to learn stuff the hard way. Most of us correct engineer's mistakes on a pretty regular basis.
SharpsDressedMan
member
Recoil of the .300 WM does not bother me. I do not shoot enough to have ammo cost factor in, and I handload anyway. If push came to shove, I could do anything I need to do with the .300WM. Having said that, I love my Garand, and have a Remington 700 Scout rifle in .30-06 that will ALSO do about anything. I have a Rem 700 .300WM for long range and tactical shooting. It is a lot heavier than my purpose built Scout. Humping the .300 is less fun, but it will reach out another 400 yards past the '06 Scout as set up. So, to sum up, the .300 will do everything ballistically better than the .30-06, but given practicality, I'd grab the .30-06 and not feel undergunned, and feel a whole lot more comfortable when packing it.
Hangingrock
Member
Lets see the difference between the 30-06 and 300-Winchester Magnum is 250fps – 300fps MV per given bullet weight on average. At what yard line is the difference meaningful. It’s probably at a distance I’m not comfortable shooting a wild game animal. There are most likely more proficient keyboard operators than there are marksmen responding to this subject.
SharpsDressedMan
member
My .300WM has a 6.5-20x scope with mill dots. I shoot some 1000 yard competitions with it, but consistent with the police tactical training I received years ago, I normally keep the rifle sighted at 700 yards, and have mil dot "zeros" for all ranges out to 1100 yards, and can click up for the 1200 yard range. I would never attempt a deer or elk shot beyond 600 yards, due to the variables, and because it just isn't necessary. Stalking IS part of hunting, just as much as dragging the the darn thing back to your camp/vehicle/etc. By comparison, my 2 3/4x '06 Scout rifle is good out to about 450 yards for hunting, but I could make a tactical shot out to 800 pretty easily. As with any 2-3x optic, if you can see it with the naked eye, you can certainly give it a shot with any scoped rifle, and 800 seems to be the combat extreme for unassisted observation. Knowing your rifle and equipment is the key.
SharpsDressedMan
member
Anyone ever tell you that when you are hunting, you don't feel the recoil?
SpeedAKL
Member
Ah, the infamous 917/30. As Mark Donohue would say, "Unless it is burning the rear tires up in 6th gear on the back stretch of Daytona, it does not have enough power."Displacement isn't even worth replacing...
1580 bhp
0-100 km/h 2.7 sec.
0-200 km/h 5.3 sec
>390 km/h top speed (>240 mph)
5.0 liter displacement.
Almost 40 years ago, no less, without the benefit of four more decades of technological advancement. The vehicle that every Zuffenhausen fan wants to take for a spin, but is scared to take for a spin, at the same time...
I wasn't suggesting that you really need 5 shots instead of 4 in a hunting rifle. OTOH you really don't need a lever action, either. My point is just that the .300 WSM doesn't offer what was promised when it was first introduced, which is a bolt gun with .308 spec's and .300 WM ballistics.
The .300 WSM is a good cartridge in its own right, with upsides and downsides, but it's not magic, either.
A BLR is probably the single best application for the .300 WSM, and the .300 WSM may be the single best cartridge for the BLR. You'll get no argument from me, on that, or anything else you posted, other than the distinctly American belief about what makes a car.
My sentiments exactly...wussies. I like a rifle that kicks hard. I shoot squirrls out of high trees with a .22 cause my lab wants me to...I notice the recoil on the 300 wm when shooting game just as much as the recoil on that .22.
Zak Smith
Member
Wussy comments aside-- the same shooter will be able to shoot a lower-recoil cartridge more accurately longer (more rounds) than a higher-recoil cartridge. If you are going to sight in and take a few shots a year hunting, this might not matter.
Uncle Mike
Member
Well...it's better to have the power and not need it, than to need the power and not have it!
I would like to see the rule book, law, ethical directives or whatever, on the minimum and maximum power that MUST be used on a specific animal!
Some of you guys act as though if a guy shoots a whitetail with a 300 Magnum, or a dove with a 12ga 3" Mag. 2oz. load of #4 shot that there has, the cardinal sin, been committed...say it ain't so!
While these rounds may not be ideal for said game, I can't really condemn a man for using them! Not that, that is going on here...I'm just saying!
If the big 300's give you the warm fuzzies while hunting with them....then by all means, please, take one to field with you!
The 30-06 will do everything you want it to, within reason...and so will the 300 mags, just the 300's will do it a bit better, but you pay for it...
Hey, it's the American way to go big and overboard!
I would like to see the rule book, law, ethical directives or whatever, on the minimum and maximum power that MUST be used on a specific animal!
Some of you guys act as though if a guy shoots a whitetail with a 300 Magnum, or a dove with a 12ga 3" Mag. 2oz. load of #4 shot that there has, the cardinal sin, been committed...say it ain't so!
While these rounds may not be ideal for said game, I can't really condemn a man for using them! Not that, that is going on here...I'm just saying!
If the big 300's give you the warm fuzzies while hunting with them....then by all means, please, take one to field with you!
The 30-06 will do everything you want it to, within reason...and so will the 300 mags, just the 300's will do it a bit better, but you pay for it...
Hey, it's the American way to go big and overboard!
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