300 WSM Lee Ultimate Die Set

[Morrey]

A friend has asked me to help me load some 300 WSM rounds and I have never used Lee dies nor loaded this cal before. There are 4 dies in his Lee Ultimate Rifle Die set.

I have a single stage RCBS press for rifle loading.

He has a bolt action 300 WSM. All of the brass he plans to use is once fired from his gun only. It is once fired factory rounds (brass) labeled as Browning ammo.

I plan to use 30 cal Hornady Interbond 165 gr bullets and IMR 4350.

Besides the obvious case prep stages, can I only use the neck sizer and bullet seating dies? I don't need to crimp do I?

Any advice is helpful...THANKS!!

 

[LoonWulf]

No crimp is needed.
if the set came with a collet die id use that instead of the full length and neck sizing. Just make sure you have the gun handy to check and see if the neck sized rounds will go back in easily. My .243 has to have the shoulders bumped to chamber nicely, but my other guns i use the collet die to neck size and never have a problem.

 

[Morrey]

No crimp is needed.
if the set came with a collet die id use that instead of the full length and neck sizing. Just make sure you have the gun handy to check and see if the neck sized rounds will go back in easily. My .243 has to have the shoulders bumped to chamber nicely, but my other guns i use the collet die to neck size and never have a problem.

Sounds great! I will have him bring his gun anyway so we can measure the COAL with my Hornady gauges. I had him pick up a modified Hornady 300WSM case to use with my gauge. I usually touch the lands with the bullet's ogive, then back the bullet off thirty thousandths from the lands as a beginning point to test accuracy.

Good Info: So I'll use the neck sizer/collet die on a case, then chamber the neck sized case for fitment check. Sound perfect!!

 

[LoonWulf]

One thing i should have mentioned is setting up the collet die takes some trial and error.....unless you get lucky which happens.

There are some good guides and tips on the interwebs, and the instructions that come with the dies are a good starting point also.

 

[Bart B.]

Best accuracy with those reloads will be made using the full length sizing die set in the press so fired case shoulders are set back about .002". Bullets seated in full length sized cases are better aligned with the bore when the round fires. Case necks are better centered on case shoulders in line with case bodies because they're all held in alignment when the case is resized. Neck only sizing dies have no case support from the back of the neck to the case pressure ring; the case shoulder and body are easily off center to the case neck.

Neck only sizing has never produced best accuracy. Best accuracy being the size of a circle containing all shot holes of several dozen fired; not just the first few shots nor the smallest few shot group of several. That sentence about Lee's collet sizing dies:

The Collet Neck sizing die is used on your fire formed brass giving you best possible accuracy.

has been disproved for decades. Same for the following from Lee:

The Factory Crimp die provides a secure crimp on bullets with or without a crimp groove. In most cases it helps accuracy by providing a uniform higher start pressure and gives the finished cartridge Factory like accuracy and dependability. The set is complete, with shell holder, powder measure and famous Lee load data featuring

The best commercial match ammo for rifles doesn't have crimped in bullets; it's been proved since the 1950's that it degrades accuracy. Rifle match winners and record setters getting best results use the least neck grip possible on bullets; the spread in muzzle velocity is smaller and pressure curves more consistent that way. And a higher start up pressure slams bullets harder into the rifling; bullets deform more and therefore are more unbalanced.

Naysayers will have a lot of words lined up in various ways to say otherwise, but they don't shoot the most accurate ammo, either.

 

[badkarmamib]

The short mags are notorious for being hard to set the shoulders back properly. My father's .270WSM was my first round to load for. Took brand new Winchester brass, found a setup that chambered well, and shot them. FL sized, and the once-fired cases would not chamber. Found that the shoulder was not getting pushed back far enough, even with cam-over. Had to machine the die down to get the rounds to chamber. Now all is well, but it was a learning experience, for sure

 

[Bart B.]

badkarmamib,

If those 270 WSM fired case shoulders didn't set back enough in the die so they would chamber easy, the die may have been the problem.

Full length sizing dies have headspace just like barrel chambers. For rimless bottleneck cases, their headspace is measured from the shoulder reference diameter (.4450") to the bottom of the shell holder when both are touching. That dimension is typically about .005" less than the 270 WSM SAAMI spec GO headspace dimension of 1.726" or 1.721". You can measure your die's headspace with a standard shell holder and a GO chamber headspace gauge; there should be about .005" gap between the die bottom and shell holder top with the gauge in the die and pushed full into it.

That ensures full length sized cases with the shell holder hard against the die bottom (camming over) will have their resized headspace about .002" greater or 1.723". That's SAAMI minimum new case headspace; their spec's are 1.723" to 1.730". This ensures resized cases will chamber easily in a minimum spec chamber as they'll all have a couple thousandths inch spread when resized; just like new, unfired cases.

I once used a .308 Win full length die that had excessive headspace. Fired cases full length sized in it with the press arm camming over would not chamber in two rifles with chamber headspace at minimums of 1.630". The die's headspace was about .004" too big at about 1.629". Most sized cases would not let the bolt close without any binding on most of them and some wouldn't let the bolt close at all.

 

[LoonWulf]

I didnt think about that, but thats likely the issue i had with my .243 die. After i ground it down a tad it sized fine, but before hand it was very hard to chamber rounds.

Ive always like the collet dies, but i see what your saying about the accuracy.

 

[badkarmamib]

It was obvious that my die was the problem (obvious after spending three days Googling what I was doing wrong ). But, during those three days, I found a lot of people with similar problems, but different solutions (lubing the inside of the necks so the expander button doesn't pull the shoulder BACK out, etc.), mostly relating to the steep angle of the shoulder. Like I said, my Dad's rifle. Don't have these problems with my .30-06

 

[horsey300]

Neck sizing with my collet gets me 3/4 moa no fliers, but I agree with loonwolf about trial and error, first time I set it up on my brother's lnl single stage, it took a few tries. The reason I buy the ultimate Lee sets is for that collet, if they made one without the fcd, I'd trade it in in a heartbeat, still FL now and then and trim to stay within spec but to each their own. I WOULD warn your buddy not to let ANYONE else try your neck sized rounds in a different gun other than the one he fired them from the first time. And even with that collet, I still dunk and rattle the case in a dish of graphite and BBS every 3-5 cases, it's been debated about how necessary this is, but I'm trying to reduce wear on the mandrel and collet, and cleaning them afterwards hasn't given me any trouble. What Bart says makes sense too. I just like this method

 

[Bart B.]

horsey300,

Is that 3/4 MOA claim the average or is it the smallest group(s) shot?

Once people know and understand how new, fired and neck or full length sized bottleneck cases are dimensioned then fit the chamber when the round fires, they'll usually understand why full length sizing promotes best accuracy.

 

[Morrey]

I don't think he does much high volume shooting, rather he just wants some loads to cull out some wild boars tearing his farm up. He wants something a step up from the bullets he is buying off the shelf. We got some Hornady Interbond 165's to try and some Nosler Accubond 165's to try out along with some IMR 4064 and IMR 4350. We'll mix and match to see what works best. If we get him to 1 MOA that is an improvement over his current ammo.

He has been saving all of his factory load brass, so I hope that neck sizing only can work. If not, it would be a simple matter of changing to the FL die and going that route. Really the difference in loading time is minimal either way.

 

[horsey300]

That's my average with .243 win 85 Sierra hpbt 43.5 h4831SC with a .2 gr spread on a hornady digital scale with a cheapo rifle, on Sunday I recorded 5/8" @100 while doing a weekly check on scope zero. With this load all of my groups have always been spectacular and moa or less but Sunday has been my best so far and 1 min between shots. I'M not disputing that I couldn't get better accuracy FL sizing among other things like seating depth etc etc, but moa works for me as coyotes are shot out to 500 yds on a bad day around here. I certainly wouldn't claim that everyone can expect these results in their own systems. I wouldn't even claim my load would be supreme to others for said caliber. Just that while neck sizing with this load, my results are sufficient for me not to change anything.

 

[Morrey]

That's my average with .243 win 85 Sierra hpbt 43.5 h4831SC with a .2 gr spread on a hornady digital scale with a cheapo rifle, on Sunday I recorded 5/8" @100 while doing a weekly check on scope zero. With this load all of my groups have always been spectacular and moa or less but Sunday has been my best so far and 1 min between shots. I'M not disputing that I couldn't get better accuracy FL sizing among other things like seating depth etc etc, but moa works for me as coyotes are shot out to 500 yds on a bad day around here. I certainly wouldn't claim that everyone can expect these results in their own systems. I wouldn't even claim my load would be supreme to others for said caliber. Just that while neck sizing with this load, my results are sufficient for me not to change anything.

Heck I agree with if it aint broke don't fix it. If your group was all over the place, I'm sure you would be looking to do something differently. If I can get my buddies group size to 1MOA, I'll be happy to call it a success.

 

[horsey300]

Just follow instructions and safety protocols, run 20 neck sized and 20 FL and see which performs to your requirements, on that pita hornady I have to take the die all the way down and play the "feel" game, rcbs should have no problems, 20# torque is the ticket and excess will hurt the equipment. Not difficult or complicated.

 

[Bart B.]

What's "play the feel game" and what 20 pounds of torque (inch or foot type) do you twist on?

Never heard of such things with a reloading press and its dies.

 

[horsey300]

https://www.titanreloading.com/consistent-crimp never crimped with it but it helps to keep from ruining collet dies on camover presses the way we use it. The feel game is feeling when you've actually pressed far enough into the collet to resize where you want it an not undersize, stopping too soon, after some practice it isn't hard, but the first few tries were definitely a learning experience. And 20# should have been ft-lbs...................also I always took the 20# as a general warning, if too much pressure is applied, you can strip the top cap out, never done it myself and didn't used to have one of those press torques around, always checked as I went and never did pop the top.

 

[Bart B.]

That link has the following:

For many years reloaders have known that neck sizing a chamber formed case is the most accurate method to reload and that their brass will last a lot longer when only the neck is being resized. They have also known that the consistency of the ammo from round to round was a matter of developing the right feel for the lever pressure being applied during the neck sizing and crimping process.

If that's true, why do people get best accuracy with proper full length dies and their use and never crimp case mouths into bullets?

No mention at all of the critical measurement unit of ammo that's caused by case neck grip that military ammo has specs for. SAAMI has it in their glossary, too.

Thanks for that link; I laughed a lot as it is far from reality. Go to a bench rest match then ask the winners about this.

 

[horsey300]

Thank you for the invitation, but I reckon I'll just keep doing it wrong. None of my critters ever crawled out of the truck to tell me I'd have killed them deader if I had used my FL more often.

 

[Bart B.]

Your point's well taken. Your standards are different than what folks wanting "best" accuracy. What you get are good enough for your objectives.

But your critters' kill zone's are many times bigger than the size of your neck sized and crimped in bulleted ammo's group at hunting ranges. Lots of room for your ammo to do what it does for you.

 

[horsey300]

Yes, as stated I hide my fcd, never have and probably never will use it, don't mistake my intent, I joined thr to avoid hard lessons and help whatever few I could to avoid hard lessons of their own as well as interact with with similarly interested individuals on topics I found interesting. As per op this was started for hog elimination purposes on custom handloads, thus my critters reference, the link I posted was not intended to sell neck sizing but to show Morrey available tools that I didn't have when I started. On the other hand, my oldest is showing an interest in possibly competing in shooting matches, and while I fear that, since she shows equal interest in training horses with me (resulting in hard-won scars and broken bones I'm sure), competitions will be very limited to a rare hobby (but maybe she'll get smarter soon), all the information supplied on FL sizing is not wasted. At that time, if we're still allowed, we'll probably change from hunting rifles with sporterized barrels to actual bench systems and loading practices will evolve for her specific uses, the hunting systems will probably remain as neck sized no crimped rounds from a 20-26" barrel, but her competitive systems will adapt accordingly.

 

[Orcon]

I've not seen any discernable difference between neck sizing and FL sizing. Then again, I don't have a wizbang custom, short chambered benchrest rifle. My 308 bolt gets hard to close when base to datum measures more than 1.627 inches. I neck size til they get to that point then FL them to 1.625 inches. Saves on time and lube.

 

[jmorris]

Neck only sizing has never produced best accuracy.

I actually have one rifle, .22 hornet, that is not only more accurate with a neck size vs FL, it also prefers just sizing the portion of the neck the bullet is in contact with.

Things like that rifle are why I try and not use words like never and always.