.303 british shooting all over

[mksteyn]

Hi All, I would like some advise on my 303 please. When shooting any 174grain military ammo it shoots to point of aim, or there abouts. As soon as I change to my Sierra prohunter 180 grainers then I am about a foot lower. If I increase the velocity would this improve the tragectory of my Sierras?

 

[Slamfire]

What type of Lee Enfield? SMLE (No 1 MkIII) or No 4 ?

Both types of Lee Enfields are extremely sensitive to proper bedding. The Lee Enfields I owned, the wood bedding had deteriorated over time, the older the rifle the worse the bedding. Of the SMLE’s I have owned, those rifles have a thin barrel which is in contact with the forearm and nosecap and even after bedding the action, my SMLE’s never shot as well as my No 4’s. I will say that after bedding all Lee Enfields types shot better and circular groups, but before bedding, the groups were inconsistent.

Changes in components in a flexible action such as the Lee Enfield results in dramatically different action dynamics, which corresponds to big point of impact changes. Stiffer actions will group different bullet weights in different Points of Impact, but the shift is less.

It only took a couple of seconds to google up pages on how to bed a Lee Enfield.
http://riflechair.blogspot.com/2011/06/diagnosing-bedding-issues-with-no4-lee.html

http://riflechair.blogspot.com/2011/07/match-tuning-considerations-for-lee.html

First thing, I would bedd the action then I would do load development next.
I recommend chronographing your loads and see if your Military ammunition is pushing the bullets at 2500 fps. If so, try to match that velocity with your 180’s, or a little less. Under no conditions hot load a Lee Enfield as the action is too flexible and was made from inferior steels compared with today’s technology. It is perfectly fine if used with loads that are service pressure or less.

 

[rondog]

All I know is mine don't seem to like boat-tailed bullets. Flat-based are OK, but boat-tails will keyhole like crazy.

 

[nathan]

Prvi Partizan 180 gr SP works great in my Fazakerley No 4.

 

[MJ]

Check your stock to action tension but don't over tighten the stock screws. Check the butt to action screw. Don't heavy but try the 150g Sierra Game King it's a flat base bullet.

Good luck
..MJ..
100 yards and holds well to 300 yards.

 

[Tinpig]

I've been using 150 gr. Sierra Match King flat base spitzer bullets (.311) and below-starting loads of IMR 4895 with great results in my 1953 No4. A pleasure to shoot and very accurate. Of course the fact that the 60 year-old rifle and its bore appear virtually untouched probably has a lot to do with that.



Tinpig

 

[DougW]

mksteyn, increasing your load might bring the point of impact up some, but be careful with a maximum load. mThe 180's will probably always shoot slightly lower than the mil 174's. I find that the 180 Match Kings I load shoot lower with IMR4895 than my 150 sptizers, but the 180's are more accurate at 200 yards my 150's.

Where do you usually shoot? I am curious as to how/where/when you shoot in your home country, and what you use your .303 for (target, hunting, self defense). Thanks for sharing!

 

[mksteyn]

Thank you all for the advise. I use my 303 for hunting. Mainly wildebeest, kudu, impala and reedbuck. I'm not 100% sure what model it is but my great grandfather used it in the boer war. It has been re barreled twice. The stock has been shortened to sporterize it. The last barrel was put on about 10 years ago. It was shooting fine but since I changed from Hornady Round nose bullets to the Sierra the accuracy has gone west.

 

[x_wrench]

from my experience with boat tailed bullets, i find that they are more difficult to "tune in" that standard flat base bullets. the first thing i would check is the muzzle crown. ANY damage there, and boat tail will be thrown off course 10 times as bad as a flat base. look at it with a STRONG magnifying glass, or eye loupe. my 300 win mag, which likes most of its ammo on the high speed end, only likes Hornady 180g btsp's down near the starting end. and with one 165 grain boat tail, i have to go below starting load to get satisfactory results. every rifle likes something different. i tell my brother that given any bullet, powder combination, i can find a decent load for it. it may not be top speed, or it may be pushing it to the limit, but with trial and error, you can certainly find a satisfactory load. at least if satisfactory does not mean 1/2 moa or better. for a hunting rifle, for me that means less than 2" @ 100 yards. my reasoning for that is because none of us are anywhere near as steady as a rest is, so we have to leave "wobble room" for us!

 

[mksteyn]

Thank you very much. I have had the crown checked and they gunsmith says there is nothing wrong with it. I think I'm going to Chronograph the military ammo and try to duplicate those with the Sierras. see if that works. Will let everyone know.

 

[303tom]

Can we see a picture of it ?

 

[Curator]

mksteyn,

The Hornady 174 grain round nose bullet is often one of the most accurate when shot from various Lee Enfields because it is a true .312 diameter. Most other bullets sold for the .303 British cartridge are .3095 to .310 and .3105. Another advantage the Hornady RN bullet has is its long bearing surface and soft-thin jacket which allows it to obturate sufficiently to fill the grooves on all but the most oversize L.E. bores. Sierra makes good bullets but the "311" Game King bullets I have measure half-thousandths less than .311 diameter. These shoot fine in my P14 but not as good in any of my Lee Enfields. I have never found a "303" bullet to perform as well on game as the Hornady 174 grain round nose for accuracy as well as penetration and expansion.

If you are not familiar with Steve Regwell's website www.303british.com, check it out. Steve used to produce small quantities of .313 and .314 diameter bullets which out-perform commercially produced .310-.311 diameter slugs. He also has a lot of good information about shooting these fine old guns.

 

[mksteyn]

Good day all just wanted to let you know that I have just Chronographed the military and Sierra bullets. The military rounds were travelling at 2360fps with a variation of 90fps. the Sierras' were travelling at an average of 2472fps with a variation of 6fps. This does not make any sense now. I would have thought that the Sierras' would be impacting higher with the highr velocities.

 

[mksteyn]

This is a photo of my 303.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Looks like a nicely sporterized No1.

The advise on using .313 and .314 diameter bullets is best you can get.

 

[303tom]

Curator & madcratebuilder are correct, yep it`s a No1 try using a 180gr. Round Nose bullet.

 

[mksteyn]

Thank you all for your input. I must admit I didn't know what model it was until now. Also the best shooting I ever had with it was with those Hornady round nose 174gr.

 

[sayak]

Best source of 312-314 bullets.....????

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Go back to what works. I have measured .303 bullets and some are undersized. Stick with Hornady as they are .312. I have found that my enfield does not like boat tail bullets. A flat base bullet will "bump up" when fired, usually enough to engage the rifling for good accuracy. You may consider a new barrel too.

 

[mksteyn]

The barrel is new. I had it fitted in 1998. I haven't used it that much either just a couple of hundred rounds through it. Thanks.

 

[Big Al Mass]

If it was used in the Boer War, I doubt it is a No 1. I suspect it was a Lee-Metford or Long Lee-Enfield earlier in its life, which would explain why it does not like boat-tailed bullets as both of those were rifles were made before the introduction of the Mk VII bullet. Also, the lack of a charger guide points to this being one of the earlier rifles.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

A couple of questions:

What powder are you loading, is it from Somchem in S.A., if so what type?
What is the seating depth of the 174 vs. the 180's?
What primers are you using?
Are you shooting 100m?
Are you getting as tight a group but it is just printing lower?

 

[Curator]

The rifle in the picture is a Lee Metford, not a SMLE. If original, it will have the Metford-style rifling. These were being phased out by the time of the "second" Boer War (1899) but remain in use even today in South Africa in private hands. Finding a bullet that shoots well in the Metford's shallow polygonal rifling may be a real challenge. The use of military surplus "cordite" loaded ammo is known to be extremely erosive to the throats and bores on these guns. They were originally designed to shoot a 215 grain round nose bullet using a compressed 70 grain charge of black powder. Velocity was a little over 2000 fps. The original MKI bullet was quit soft with a relatively thin cupro-nickle jacket by modern standards. Duplicating this load may be difficult to impossible with modern commercially available components.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

The rifle in the picture is a Lee Metford, not a SMLE. If original, it will have the Metford-style rifling. These were being phased out by the time of the "second" Boer War (1899) but remain in use even today in South Africa in private hands. Finding a bullet that shoots well in the Metford's shallow polygonal rifling may be a real challenge. The use of military surplus "cordite" loaded ammo is known to be extremely erosive to the throats and bores on these guns. They were originally designed to shoot a 215 grain round nose bullet using a compressed 70 grain charge of black powder. Velocity was a little over 2000 fps. The original MKI bullet was quit soft with a relatively thin cupro-nickle jacket by modern standards. Duplicating this load may be difficult to impossible with modern commercially available components.

I know a couple of blokes locally who shoot rifles from the boer war era as these are family heirlooms passed from one son to the other. It is a very emotional thing for them to go out and hunt open sights with these weapons, kinda like reliving the past. Not many can shoot them well, the later models are more successful.

 

[.333 Nitro Express]

Hi, MKSteyn,

Faster loads *do not* necessarily lead to a higher point of impact. Sometimes, it is actually the opposite. Consider muzzle jump: this is the vertical displacement of the muzzle under recoil. A bullet traveling through the barrel slower will allow for a greater degree of muzzle jump before exiting the barrel than a faster one.

Add to this the other innumerable variables such as drag (dependent on area of contact between bullet and barrel), and you get to where the others are pointing: every bullet, every load has its own idiosyncrasies. You'll just have to try and see. Frustrating, but that's also the fun part of rifle shooting. Everything is a (controlled) surprise.

Best, Tom