.308 limits

[rbernie]

However, elephants are very different animals than lions. 13000 pounds vs 500 max.

They have one very important characteristic in common - both can flat out KILL YOU if you don't kill them first.

If I had to take a shot at a charging lion, I would want to KNOW that I am shooting a round that will go in one end and come out the other end no matter what - not one that might do the trick if the shot is a perfect CNS hit or that possesses sufficient energy only for a broadside shot that doesn't hit major bone.

If you cannot grasp the essence of that statement, I do not know how you can offer an opinion on terminal ballistics in any good faith.

 

[saturno_v]

rbernie

In a charge, even if you get a shot that will go in and out even lenghtwise , if you do not hit the CNS you are in trouble....this is pretty much what every dangerous game hunter said on here and everywhere else.

Going completely through is not an instant kill guarantee...a CNS hit is....this is not difficult to grasp...

Few months ago on an eastern WA farm my friend shot a coyote with a 270 ballistic silvertips that blew a pass-through hole (heart and lungs gone and one leg almost severed) you could literally put your arm in...the critter still ran away...

They have one very important characteristic in common - both can flat out KILL YOU if you don't kill them first.

Absolutely.

Still one weight 13.000 pounds where the other tops at 500....

 

[rbernie]

In a charge, even if you get a shot that will go in and out even lenghtwise , if you do not hit the CNS you are in trouble....this is pretty much what every dangerous game hunter said on here and everywhere else.

Lengthwise chest shot gets you heart/lungs, maybe the spine, and probably a hip. The hip or shoulder will break them down.

Are you claiming that you're gonna shoot 'em in the head as they charge at you, to make that 308 work?

 

[saturno_v]

Lengthwise chest shot gets you heart/lungs, maybe the spine, and probably a hip. The hip or shoulder will break them down

Heart and lungs hits, especially in an enraged Lion (according to the experienced safari hunters), it's not going to insure a charge stop....a lenghtwise shot who knows how it flows...difficult to sever the spine and even a broken hip is not going to stop a big cat from hurting you if you are very close...use the search function and read some of H&H hunter stories on THR

Only CNS hit...brain or spine is 100% guaranteed on any game or human for that matter.

As far as I read on the topic (confirmed by H&H Hunter), on a frontal shot on a Lion is very very difficult to hit the brain and instead hit just the fatty mane...on top of that (my speculation) if you hunt your lion for a trophy head you do not want to pulverize the cat skull with a 470 NE blast close and personal.

You should have seen the conditions of that coyote when my friend tracked him down....if someone told me that an animal coud survive one second with that kind of damage, I would have laughed at his face.

Are you claiming that you're gonna shoot 'em in the head as they charge at you, to make that 308 work?

Again, I never advocated a 308 or a 30-30 for Lion or Grizzly hunting.

 

[saturno_v]

.308 which is basically the equivlant of the .275 Rigby AKA 7X57 Mauser.

H&H

With all due respect, an old 7X57 is not exactly the ballistic equivalent of a modern 308.
Looking at the ballistic tables of both rounds from the major manufacturers, the 7 mm Mauser stops at circa 2200-2300 ft/lb (RWS load a tad hotter) while the .308, in some particular hot loads still within the SAAMI specs for the caliber (for example Hornady, Double Tap, Corbon, etc...) can go over 3000 and on average is at 2600-2700.
Heavier bullets on average, slighly larger caliber.

It's like saying the a 30-06 is basically the equivalent of a 338 Win Mag...well not quite...

And modern bullet technology is far different than 100 years ago.

 

[R.W.Dale]

saturno why can't you simply admit you're completely lost on such matters. There's no shame in a man admitting to what he knows and doesn't know

As far as I read on the topic (confirmed by H&H Hunter), on a frontal shot on a Lion is very very difficult to miss the brain and hit just the fatty mane..

funny he says the exact opposite in YOUR other thread.

It is darn difficult to hit a lion in the brain in a frontal charge especially if you are standing up as the cut off angle makes the shot really difficult at short range. An experienced man given the time will kneel down to negate the cut off angle.

It is fairly common that people miss the brain on a charging lion. They usually shoot over the brain into the main hair or if they go low they break the jaw as described. Once a DG animal such as lion is wounded they are damn near bullet proof to anything other than a CNS disconnect. Buffalo are the same way.

reading comprehension skills are key

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=397968&highlight=angle

 

[saturno_v]

Krochus

It was a typing mistake (trying to type fast while I'm doing other things doesn't help) that is exactly what I meant...instead of typing "hit" I typed "miss"...very hard to hit the brain and instead hit the fatty mane..if you read my entire sentence you'll see that I made a typing mistake and I apologize for that.

Thanks for pointing it out, I corrected the original post.

 

[rbernie]

So if it's too hard to hit the brain to be a reliable shot, and a front-to-back shot thru the vitals isn't to your liking, just how do you propose in your world of theory to drop a charging ANYTHING?

Or are you now painted into a corner whereby only a SPINE shot will drop them, since that is the only remaining CNS target that you've advocated and not yet abandoned.

 

[saturno_v]

First of all I think no hunter wants to experience a charge while lion hunting....I think.......it's not the desiderable outcome and situations like that should be avoided at all cost. To the experienced safari hunters, please correct me if I'm wrong

You should ask to the hunters about what is the best shot to stop a charge....H&H claims he can shoot a 375 accurately and easily like a 22 so maybe he would go for the brain...or the neck.....maybe is very difficult to stop a charge to begin with.....maybe if you blow the cat heart and lungs and manage to stay out of harm way long enough you are out of the woods...maybe you have an army of guides backing you up that showers the critter with an heavy fusillade...very unpredictable situation.....just ask them.

 

[John828]

24 hours didn't change much...

 

[Readyrod]

The reason I asked about the .308 was because I'm trying to get an idea of which guns I will eventually buy. Originally I just tried to make an "each gun for each occasion" list but it's just too many guns. I risk falling into a maintenance trap where I'm spending all my time maintaining and no time shooting. It happened to me a few years ago with bicycles. So now I just want a system that will cover everything. I'm figuring that the .223 Rem is a good critter round and it is easy to find. I like the Mini 14 because it seems reliable and it is semi auto. (I've worked on farms and the coyotes often traveled in pairs, it was a dairy farm so they weren't such a pest, tho they did drive the dogs mental) I thought that the .308 would be a good common round that could pick up where the .223 left off. Now I'm thinking that maybe I should think about something bigger or better. I don't want to get something that can handle up to grizzly, the .308, and have to get an extra gun just for grizzly. Is this realistic? What common easy to find round would be good for, say, deer to grizzly? The Africa thing is the same. I don't know if I will ever go hunting in Africa but it would be convenient (if it's realistic) to focus on one caliber/gun. Also, if I don't have too many guns I can focus, as one poster pointed out, on knowing and feeling comfortable with the gun that I have. I didn't see any lions in the wild in Africa but I was at the zoo a few weeks ago and I saw a lion do this jump up and run at another lion thing and that sucker was seriously fast. I wouldn't want to be fumbling around with my gun if it was coming for me. BTW even if you don't get to hunt there the game in East Africa is truly beautiful to see. Specially for kids.

 

[Art Eatman]

If I really went and cleaned up the off-topic junk on this thread, it would be a one-page deal.

Readyrod, the .308 is plenty good for anything in the NA continent but for the big bears. It's not the ideal for 500-yard shots on mountain goats/sheep or antelope, but for 95% of all other hunting it'll work just fine.

The .223 is a great varmint cartridge. I've killed coyotes, jackrabbits and a slew of prairie dogs. I wouldn't choose it as a deer cartridge, but it will work with good shot placement and the heavier bullets.

The Mini-14 is reliable for its first shot to go to the same point of aim this week as it did last month, even if it's not the thing for tight groups at the bench rest. It's a great little hunting rifle. I've used them as my truck gun, and was quite satisfied with the actual results in the field.

And if an African hunt is available at some time in the future, odds are that if you can afford the costs of the trip, the cost of a rifle is no big deal as an add-on expense. You have plenty of time to read up on that subject, and decide later on.

And cartridges suitable for Africa are at least a whole other thread. You not only have to consider capabilities, you are stuck with dealing with the laws of African countries concerning what you are allowed to use on certain game.

 

[rbernie]

The reason I asked about the .308 was because I'm trying to get an idea of which guns I will eventually buy. Originally I just tried to make an "each gun for each occasion" list but it's just too many guns.

A 308 or 30-06 is a fine 'one-rifle' solution if hunting game (as opposed to varmints) in North America is the principal purpose.

 

[Readyrod]

Sorry I don't know the etiquette quite yet. Should I call it quits with this one and start another thread or two? BTW thanks about the mini 14 info. It does seem like a great back of the truck/tractor kind of a gun. As for hunting in Africa I can always dream. I will go back though. I've got to see the wildebeest migration at least once in my life.

 

[John828]

Not your problem readyrod, you asked a fair question. It was the bickering that doomed the thread.

Get yourself a .308 and love it, shoot it, clean it, and love it some more. Many have done so and never looked back, but that can be said for every caliber.

 

[qajaq59]

Considering you can load a 200 gr bullet for the .308 I'd say there isn't much that it wont kill with a properly placed shot. But that properly place shoot usually requires some real hunting skills.