308 Service Rifle Loads

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DMW1116

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Just wondering the difference between these and normal 308 loads. I noticed they are separate categories on the Hornady App and on Hodgdens website.

I developed loads for my AR 10 based on data from my Lyman manual and the data that came with my Lee dies. Unwittingly these also fall in the range of 308 Service Rifle loads. IMR 4064 powder at 40.7 or 42.7 grains with 180 and 175 grain bullets respectively.
 
Service rifle data takes into account powders that work well in gas operated rifles, normally using bullets that would be considered target bullets... Hodgdon data uses the SMK in 3 of their 4 service rifle loads in .308, for example. The key with service rifle data is pressure at the gas port. That data usually doesn't push the velocity or pressure envelope.
 
Service rifle I believe was started because of older generation guns like the m14/m1a. New m16/ar style rifles can have adjustable gas where older guns were factory set and forget. These loads give good function and prevent damage when gas adjustments are not possible
 
There’s quite a bit of information about the M118 lr load on line, I’ve tried to duplicate it a few times although my rifle specific loads shot better.
 

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We have some of that here but it’s like $3/shot. My 175 grain load is pretty accurate but I think I’m giving up some velocity, 2550 down to 2500 fps maybe.

I’m looking for alternatives due to the price bump on the Sierras and found some 168 grain Amax that shoot well but the CFE 223 powder seems to make the load a bit hotter so I’m going to try for a service rifle load range with IMR 4064.
 
I shoot mostly 168 SMK's in my M1-A's using 4895. 4064 works well but its about the slowest that I would be comfortable with. And like South Prairie Jim says, my loads shoot better than the M118lr load.
 
IMR 4064 has been good in my 223 and 308 so far. I’d try some 4895 if I could find any. I have a supply of IMR 4064 left from before the pandemic, though it has become unobtainium here since that started. The Amax bullets are a little cheaper and more available and in preliminary testing shot as good as the Sierra 175s. I haven’t tried any of the factory loaded M118. I ah e tried some Federal Gold Medal Match with the 175 grain SMK and my hand loads are equal to them accuracy wise, but not better.
 
I have a couple boxes of 168grn FGGM, I use it as a standard when I’m working on a load… it tells me if it’s me, the rifle, or the load misbehaving… ;). My hand loads are at least as accurate as them, and much cheaper.
 
That cheaper part is the key. I won’t get to try them this weekend but I hope to load up some 168 grain test batches. I’m not trying to push velocity, so the service rifle loads seem like a good route.
 
The furthest range I have access to is 300 yards and most of my shooting is done at a local 200 yard range. 308 in this gun is not a round I'm interested in hot rodding. I'll tinker with 9mm, really tinker with 38 Special in my Blackhawk, and maybe a little with my 223 rifles, but 308 in a semi-auto is right out. I've preached to people since I started reloading about rifles vs pistols. If you want to see how much more powerful something like a 308 is compared to a 9mm, just check out the powder weight ranges. There is over 10 times the powder in a mild 308 round than in a 9mm round. I'm not messing around with that. An even bigger difference is the number of rounds per pound. 2000 rounds of 9mm from my can of W231 vs only 150 from a pound of IMR 4064 in 308.

I'm pretty sure I've been in the lower node range already. My 180 grain load uses the minimum powder charge from the Lee load data that came with my dies. The 175 grain load uses a charge in the lower half of the data range. Even the CFE 223 load uses the 2nd from the bottom load from the Lee data. It still needs a slight adjustment on the gas block to cut down the amount. All three have shot about 3/4" at 100 yards during initial testing, though only the 175 grain load has been confirmed by more testing. I had an array of 6 loads for the CFE 223 test. That 2nd set from the bottom shot so good I just stopped. No use to tempt fate when I met my accuracy goal (< 1 MOA in a 3-shot group for initial tests). Without a gas block adjustment, that load sends brass down range just behind the bullet. I didn't even want to try the upper 3 CFE 223 charge weights.

Tinkering with my 9mm I was trying for a hearing safe gallery load, but the charge weights wouldn't go low enough without failing to cycle. Even in 30-30 I'm not going up. I bought the Cast Bullet Manual just for the reduced loads with various bullets to run through my lever action.
 
If you want to see how much more powerful something like a 308 is compared to a 9mm, just check out the powder weight ranges.

It's not necessarily the powder charge, it's the operating pressure. 9mm can launch a 115grn bullet at 35000psi, a .308 can launch a 110grn bullet... but at 62000psi.
 
I shoot mostly 168 SMK's in my M1-A's using 4895. 4064 works well but its about the slowest that I would be comfortable with.

I agree, 4895 is right for 308 with 168 SMK's. I tried Varget, 4064, AA2520, and RL15. They all worked good, 2520 the best actually, but 4895 around here at least is always available unlike some of the other powders. It just works.
 
Service rifle I believe was started because of older generation guns like the m14/m1a. New m16/ar style rifles can have adjustable gas where older guns were factory set and forget. These loads give good function and prevent damage when gas adjustments are not possible
Exactly. Especially where x51 was concerned in the M1a but also where x63 was concerned with the finnicky Garand gas system. Both service rifles were subject to damage when overcharged and cycling and reliability issues when undercharged. Both service rifles were designed to best function using 147-150 grain projectiles .... and it soon became apparent that the shooting/reloading public wasn't going to allow that to stand.

Thus the need for published service rifle data. Hodgdon may have been the first, I can't remember. I seem to remember Hornady really made a big deal out of doing it 15 or 20 years ago. Prior to that there were a couple of usenet groups and one or two of the oldest forums that shared info. And of course there were always shared recipes going around at Perry every year. We all had our little black books and our little dinner groups where we woukd sit around and talk about various new loads .... those of us not so anal and secretive as-to not be willing to share data. There were always a few of those.
 
I've preached to people since I started reloading about rifles vs pistols. If you want to see how much more powerful something like a 308 is compared to a 9mm, just check out the powder weight ranges. There is over 10 times the powder in a mild 308 round than in a 9mm round.
Welllllllllllll ..... really it's more about burn rates and pressures than about case volume.

Pistol calibers (typically shorter barrels and heavier projectiles) tend to utilize propellants with much faster burn rates than do rifle calibers. Rifle calibers, on the other hand, general utilize longer barrels and lighter bullets ... generally speaking.

Barrel lengths and projectile weights play a huge role in pressure dynamics produced by gas expansion ... the result of a controlled smokeless powder (chemical) explosion in a closed chamber. All of that has much more to do with it than simply case capacity ... technically speaking.

Ask yourself this question. (This is what physicists refer-to as "Thought Experiment" ... this is how Einstein came up with E=m^² while riding a train to work one day.)

35 Remington ... 357 Magnum. Same 158 grain projectile. Identical same, one loaded into a 35 Rem case and the other loaded into a 357 mag case.

One calls for a fast burning pistol powder to be used. One calls for a slower burning rifle powder to be used.

Is there one powder that could be used for both?

Is there one charge weight that could be used for both?

Why or why not?

If the end result is to send a projectile of the same weight down a barrel traveling at a high rate of speed ... why or why not?
 
Welllllllllllll ..... really it's more about burn rates and pressures than about case volume.

Pistol calibers (typically shorter barrels and heavier projectiles) tend to utilize propellants with much faster burn rates than do rifle calibers. Rifle calibers, on the other hand, general utilize longer barrels and lighter bullets ... generally speaking.

Barrel lengths and projectile weights play a huge role in pressure dynamics produced by gas expansion ... the result of a controlled smokeless powder (chemical) explosion in a closed chamber. All of that has much more to do with it than simply case capacity ... technically speaking.

Ask yourself this question. (This is what physicists refer-to as "Thought Experiment" ... this is how Einstein came up with E=m^² while riding a train to work one day.)

35 Remington ... 357 Magnum. Same 158 grain projectile. Identical same, one loaded into a 35 Rem case and the other loaded into a 357 mag case.

One calls for a fast burning pistol powder to be used. One calls for a slower burning rifle powder to be used.

Is there one powder that could be used for both?

Is there one charge weight that could be used for both?

Why or why not?

If the end result is to send a projectile of the same weight down a barrel traveling at a high rate of speed ... why or why not?

when I say that I’m generally talking to non gun people. I could say all that but I’d just see their hair ruffle as it goes over their head.

Besides all that, would I be incorrect in saying all the energy the bullet can get comes from the powder? Do different powders used in rifles vs pistols have large differences in the amount of energy they contain?
 
Service rifle I believe was started because of older generation guns like the m14/m1a. New m16/ar style rifles can have adjustable gas where older guns were factory set and forget. These loads give good function and prevent damage when gas adjustments are not possible

Why wouldn't the Schuster adjustable gas plug work?

I don't have an M1A, so maybe there's something about the Schuster plug that folks don't like, I don't know.
 
Why wouldn't the Schuster adjustable gas plug work?

I don't have an M1A, so maybe there's something about the Schuster plug that folks don't like, I don't know.
There are a lot of military style matches that require rifles be completely unmodified. It might be a solution for a casual shooter.
 
Do different powders used in rifles vs pistols have large differences in the amount of energy they contain?

That's a really good, but tricky, question.

I'm neither a chemist or a physicist but .... well, if I am not mistaken, for instance, .... take N140 for example. N140 was the latest greatest thing 15-20 years ago. It was the result of new chemical technology ... a marked improvement over N133 and N135 with vastly superior cleanlisness features over 4895, RL15, Varget and even 4064 ... it was the end-all be-all especially for 22 cal .... except it still couldn't achieve the velocities ammo manufacturers were searching for to meet new milspec design demands.

And then comes N540. N540 was/is the solution. Higher velocities with the heavier pills WITHOUT the massive pressure spikes and while still maintaining super consistent accuracy and cleanliness goals. And how do they describe N540? (See screenshot below).

High energy.

They don't say that about N140 (they will not even publish the energy content numbers on the 100 series) ... but they do say it about all of their 500 series powders. "High energy". And it's a term being used more and more by all the major manufacturers because it is the powder descriptive equivalent of tastier, faster, prettier, intelligent, desirable, all rolled up into one for serious shooters and hand loaders.

Why is that important? Does it apply to any pistol powders?

Sure it does. All powders (which are technically classfied as fuels) are given their energy ratings using the J/g (joules per gram) energy content standards (not all are published). So whereas, let's use the 300 series powders from VV as an example, while the coatings and extrusion type may change the burn rates slightly, the energy for all of the 300 series handgun powders remains right around 4100 J/g.

Guess what? The energy content ratings for the 500 series rifle powders? 4000 J/g

So that should tell us everything. That speaks volumes. The difference between their high energy rifle and pistol powders are only 100 J/g?!?!?!?!?!?!

That also makes us stop and pause and realize once again what may be the most overriding factor, the obvious difference really, which forces these massively different loads between rifles and pistols ... is it barrel length?

Thompson Centerfire, Thompson Contender didn't think so. Neither did any of the original levergun designers.

Again ... it comes down to energy transfer. Energy transfer vs .... vs ..... vs .............. friction. Ah ha!

And once it leaves the pipe it still has to deal with friction/resistance but now it's on its own, all the energy has been transferred to the projectile and now it is dependent upon its ballstic coefficient to overcome the friction from air. That's another science.

Back to your original example.

Sure, a keg of powder has a far higher energy content than does a pound .... but that's not what ballistics are all about. Ballistics are about achieving the maximum velocity possible out of a given barrel length with a given bullet design/weight and achieving the flattest straightest truest trajectory ..... and then, after having accomplished all of that the projectile must perform properly upon impact. All of this without, optimally-speaking, producing a grievously excessive fireball as the projectile is exiting the launch tube.

What a wonderful hobby it is that we endeavor to participate.
 
The best lesson is to shoot 30-06 in a garand not 308.

Unless the Garand is chambered in 308 Win.

In the late 1950s to early 1960s after the government adopted the M14, they worked at rechambering Garands to 308 Win. If I remember correctly it was at the request of the Navy.

At first, they tried chamber inserts but the inserts would not stay in the barrel reliably. So, they rebarreled a number of Garands to 308 Win.

If I remember correctly, an insert was installed in the magazine to prevent 30-06 cartridges from being loaded in a 308 Win chambered rifle. I do know magazine inserts are still availabe currently.

“Original” 308 Win Garands show up once in a while. CMP also made some 308 Win chambered CMP Specials a few years ago. These may still be cataloged but I have not checked the CMP web site recently.
 
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