308 win FL die for auto loading rifle

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NETO1978

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I am looking for a full lenght sizing die for my 308 reloading job.

Since i tried to use some friend's ammo (used in a bolt action rifle), my Remington R25 didn't cycle.

I 'VE BEEN TOLD THAT IT'S A DIE "CASE"
IS THAT TRUE?

WICH DIE SHOULD I BUY FOR RELOADING FOR AUTO LOADING 308WIN RIFLE?
TKS.
 
I don't think it it a die case. When properly done any major manufactures die should work. It might be done slightly different than you would for a bolt action but still. The only reason it wouldn't work if it's a super tight chamber. Then maybe a small base die. However, that is rarely the case.
 
NETO1978,

If you buy factory ammo, it will feed and function in your rifle. If you fire this ammo in your rifle and resize this brass using a regular full length sizing die, they will feed and fire in your rifle. However, if you use brass that has been fired in someone else's rifle, you may need to use a small base sizing die to get it to fit your chamber. This is likely the problem with your friends ammo.

Don
 
If properly sized with a full length sizer, the ammo should fit your gun as well. All you need to load .308 is a regular full length die set. RCBS, Redding, Lee, etc.
 
So many people reload for bolt rifles that they get used to what would be sloppy reloading practices for auto rifles.

As long as the bolt cams engage, you can crush fit an oversized cartridge in a bolt gun. That is why neck sizing is so popular and hardly any bolt gunners ever set up their dies with a case gage. They just crush fit the ammo in the chamber.

Gas guns will jam with ammo that will chamber in bolt rifles.

Most of my gas guns are match rifles. I have a few rifles with military chambers. Chambers in military rifles are huge. The cases come out huge too.

I own Wilson cartridge headspace gages. These work great in setting up your dies to size the case to SAAMI lengths. These gages are also oversize between the shoulder and the base, so you can drop a fired case in the gage and roughly measure the headspace of your rifle.

I also have reamer cut gages. I have asked the gunsmiths who chamber my match rifles to use their chambering reamers and cut me a dimensionally correct chamber from a barrel stub. I can use this gage to tell me if my ammunition is too fat as well as being too long.

This has lead me to the use of small base dies. In the pictures below I found two huge fired WRA 68 cases. One would drop all the way in the Wilson gage, but the other would not drop in the reamer cut gage.

After sizing with a standard Lee sizing die, one case would not drop all the way in the reamer cut gage. After sizing with a Redding small base die, the other case would drop in the reamer cut gage.

If you want to improve your feed and extraction reliability in a semi auto, you should use small base dies.

A couple of caveats, one is that you must set up a small base die with a cartridge headspace gage or you will set the case shoulder back too much. This is the origin of those myths that state small base dies oversize brass. They will if you don’t gage your die set up. The second is that spray on lubes don’t have the lubricity necessary to small base size. Imperial sizing wax and RCBS water soluble work just fine in small base dies.

Wilson gage with new Winchester brass.
ReducedWilsongagemeasuringnew308bra.jpg

Once fired WRA 68, one drops in Wilson gage, the other won’t drop in reamer cut gage.

OncefiredWRA68unsizedincasegages.gif

WRA 68 case sized in Lee sizing die, won't drop in reamer cut gage
WRAsizedinLeedie.gif

WRA68 case sized in Redding small base die, drops in reamer cut gage
WRAresizedinRCBSSmallbasedie.gif
 
you may want to put a little crimp on you cases after loading this will ensure you have the pressure needed to cycle some autoloaders. it will also ensure you bullet/case is still in line with one another .
 
Some once fired .308 win and .223 rem which has been fired full auto needs to be small based sized to be used at all. The MG chamber are huge on purpose and makes for very overysized cases.
 
Wade says:
you may want to put a little crimp on you cases after loading this will ensure you have the pressure needed to cycle some autoloaders. it will also ensure you bullet/case is still in line with one another .
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I don't think crimping case mouths' is a good idea. In my own tests, crimping seated bullets tends to make 'em more crooked with the case axis. Nobody shooting centerfire rifle matches winning lots of them and setting records along the way crimps case mouths on bullets; they know better. Even the military arsenals loading match ammo quit crimping those cannelured 30 caliber 172-gr. FMJBT bullets in M72 .30-06 match ammo several decades ago when they learned better accuracy was had with uncrimped case mouths. They quit canneluring those bullets which helped, too.

Crimping rifle case mouths on seated bullets adds another variable in the ammo. Muzzle velocity spreads tend to get bigger as more crimp's applied. This happens as the force needed to push the bullet out goes up and the resistance from the crimp has a greater range than uncrimped case mouths.
 
I'll agree. We try so hard to get consistent neck tension (resistance) it just makes it tougher if we add the variable of a crimp. AC
 
This may be a bit of an aside, but still relates to SB/std base dies. I have 8 GI Garands, an Armscorp M14 (all GI parts and a new when installed SAK chrome lined bbl) and a DPMS CAR with a 16" chrome-moly bbl, and I have never needed nor used SB dies. I have reloaded all manner of brass, GI and commercial, with never a failure to chamber. I use Pacific 308 dies, RCBS 30-06 and Lee 223s. I guess all of my chambers are generous, but one of my 30-06s is an absolute minimum headspace chamber (new VAR bbl installed by Tony Pucci) and it eats them all. I fully intended to get SB dies, but never got a round tuit since I never needed them. My good fortune, I know, but still leaves me pondering at times...:cool:
 
This may be a bit of an aside, but still relates to SB/std base dies. I have 8 GI Garands, an Armscorp M14 (all GI parts and a new when installed SAK chrome lined bbl) and a DPMS CAR with a 16" chrome-moly bbl, and I have never needed nor used SB dies. I have reloaded all manner of brass, GI and commercial, with never a failure to chamber. I use Pacific 308 dies, RCBS 30-06 and Lee 223s. I guess all of my chambers are generous, but one of my 30-06s is an absolute minimum headspace chamber (new VAR bbl installed by Tony Pucci) and it eats them all. I fully intended to get SB dies, but never got a round tuit since I never needed them. My good fortune, I know, but still leaves me pondering at times...
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The first post is from a guy who is having chambering issues with ammo fired in someone else's chamber, this type of post occurs regularly in this forum, so why do we have doubt about sizing issues?

My first 30-06 slamfire was with ammunition sized in a RCBS standard sizing die. The second was with ammo sized in a Bonanza match sizing die. Both Garands had Douglas match barrels. The cases were also primed with Federal primers.

The second slamfire, which blew out the back of the receiver, every primer pocket had been reamed to depth and the primers were hand seated. I knew I had no high primers. The second slamfire cases had been sized in a Bonanza match die, but I figured that since I did not have any high primers, that they must be OK to use in a Garand.

Conventional wisdom is that only high primers cause slamfires. And that primer sensitivity has nothing to do with slamfires. I found that convential wisdom is all bunk.

(since I am still using the same trigger assembly, I also know the hammer never followed the bolt)

When I sent the slamfire cases and unfired cases to the gunsmith, both times I was told that the cases were too long and too fat. Like .001" or .003". Something you would never notice in a bolt rifle.

Garands and M1'a have the inertia to chamber slightly fat and slightly long cases. But it is a bad idea as bolt closure is delayed as the cartridge is crush fit to the chamber. In that time period, that free floating firing is just tapping the heck out of the primer, and your lugs are not engaged.

Since my out of battery slamfires I have used SB dies whenever I can get them. And I use those case gages everytime I size 308 or 30-06 brass. I also use the least sensitive primers I can find (CCI #34's) instead of the most sensitive primers on the market (Federal)

These gunsmiths see at least one M1 or M1a per year where the receiver is damaged from an out of battery slamfire. They also get lots of calls from people who are having function issues with ammo shot in another chamber.

Fulton Armory has seen enough blown up Garands that Clint recommends that shooters never use reloads.

Your GI chambers and VAR barrel have very wide chambers compared to a SAAMI chamber. If you ever rebarrel one of these brifles with a commerical barrel, it is highly likely that your standard sizing die will not be able to size the cases for a friction free drop into the new chamber.
 
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When I sent the slamfire cases and unfired cases to the gunsmith, both times I was told that the cases were too long and too fat. Like .001" or .003". Something you would never notice in a bolt rifle.
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I will say that I am scrupulous in trimming to minimum length - every case is trimmed every time. And you are right on about the generous chambers of the GI bbls, but I have a commercial bbl on a Winnie that has had the same diet. I allow that I may be on thin ice, but generally the only variable working with mine is std base dies. I am pretty conscientious about loading, and any gun work that relates to function and safety is done by full-up smiths - Clint worked on the M14; Accuracy Gun Shop, Columbus, GA (former USAMU smith), and Tony Pucci the Garands. But it might time to pick up those SB dies, anyway (and stick with the hard primers). Been waitin' on them round tuits for years; can't hurt, and I'm a firm believer in risk avoidance... ;)
All good points from Alabammy Slammy - we all would do well to heed.
Cheers,
Maj Dad
(speaking of Alabammy Slammy, it's 24-6 right now and the slammin' continues :D)
 
will say that I am scrupulous in trimming to minimum length - every case is trimmed every time. And you are right on about the generous chambers of the GI bbls, but I have a commercial bbl on a Winnie that has had the same diet. I allow that I may be on thin ice, but generally the only variable working with mine is std base dies. I am pretty conscientious about loading, and any gun work that relates to function and safety is done by full-up smiths - Clint worked on the M14; Accuracy Gun Shop, Columbus, GA (former USAMU smith), and Tony Pucci the Garands. But it might time to pick up those SB dies, anyway (and stick with the hard primers).
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Go ask those guys about the number of ruined rifles they have seen, and how many they get back each year. I would be curious to know.

I was unfortunate to have two slamfires in Garands, so since then, I have been very cautious. There are people who don't wear safety belts, smoke two packs a day, drive drunk (I have met functional drunks, they drink to a certain level of intoxication and stay there till they go home), and some of these folks live a long time and don't have accidents.

I have a friend who never does any maintenance till something falls off. He drives his vehicles 200 K miles. I take care of my vehicles, 100% proper maintenance, and yet I get blown head gaskets and warped engine blocks at 125,000 miles. Sometimes life is unfair. :cuss:

A primer initiated slamfire event is very rare. And yet, when you get enough people together, the chances are one will happen. I can recall one Camp Perry Garand match where the load command was given during standing, and everyone heard the shot. It was in an battery slamfire. That year's CMP ammo was made by Federal.

George Frost's book has statistics on primer testing. In his book “Ammunition Making”, provides a good description and procedure for calculating the sensitivity numbers in a primer test. His book shows that lots are accepted if a small number of primers are allowed to fire at the lowest energy impact, the "none fire" level.

Your chances of having an overly sensitive primer in your gun may be 1:50,000 or 1:1,000,000. You could go your entire life without having an in battery slamfire or worse, an out of battery slamfire. But people win the lottery every month with 1:100,000,000 chances. Why risk it? Receivers are not getting cheaper. Certain body parts don't grow back.

(If I was not wearing safety glasses I would have been blinded in the right eye. I had pits directly in line with my pupil.)

Proper sizing reduces the risk of an out of battery slamfire, proper primers reduce the risk of a slamfire, in battery or otherwise.

(speaking of Alabammy Slammy, it's 24-6 right now and the slammin' continues )

Roll Tide, Alabama Won!
 
put a little crimp on you cases after loading this will ensure you have the pressure needed to cycle some autoloaders
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Just so you know, crimp has absolutely nothing at all whatsoever to do with adding pressure to cycle the gun.

Richard Lee, in his book says crimping increases a loads pressure only about 250 PSI on a 54,000 PSI load, as tested by Hodgdon Powder company..

Crimp may aid feeding by keeping the edge of the case mouth from catching on the feed ramp, or it will prevent bullet set-back due to recoil or feeding.

But is has nothing to do with generating extra pressure to cycle the action.

rc
 
Seems like this might be a good thread to ask this question.
Although I’m new to the forum (posting) I’ve been reading a lot of information as I’m changing from 30.06 reloading to .308 for my new Springfield M1A and trying to clear up some facts.
First, I’ve got once fired Remington brass (from my M1A) that I want to reload to be fired in my M1A. So there’s no “Different chamber size issue” being it’s an auto-loader, I believe in full length re-sizing and putting a caliper on each case and trimming to size if necessary.
That being said, here’s my “Gray” area of understanding…
Do I need to use a headspace gauge ….. My thought would be that if it’s fully re-sized and trimmed, every case would be a “Go” in the gauge.
Your thoughts? :banghead:
 
The reason for using a cartridge headspace gauge is to set up / verify the resizing die. (For whatever dimension you believe is safe...many recommend SAAMI minimum and just live with shortened brass life. It's a better alternative than slamfires.)

If you manage your brass, you can probably get away with checking the lot and assuming they are all sized identically.

However, if you used "mixed brass", even all from that rifle but of different number of reloadings, work hardening can make the measured cartridge headspace vary due to springback, and require adjusting your die.

I've found that dropping every case into a headspace gauge is a quick check for proper resizing. Turn it over and set it on flat surface and it instantly checks case length. Toss brass in a "good" or "to be trimmed" bucket and go on to the next case.

As most mfgrs of reloading equipment, publishers of reloading manuals, and experienced reloaders recommend use of a cartridge headspace gauge, I don't know why people just don't drop the $30 and go out and buy them. :)
 
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So we're talking about 2 different gauges here...
A headspace "GO" gauge to set the die, (and to check periodically)



561704.jpg




and a

Cartridge headspace gauge to check the case normally after it is run through the full length sizing die…?


271313.jpg
 
My understanding is that you do not insert a chamber headspace gauge in your resizing die. Chamber headspace gauges are made (and usually used) in a set. These are typically labeled "Go", "No Go" and "Field" (aka Field Reject). These are used to determine if the headspace in a given rifle is within bounds or is unsafe to shoot. They are used in a rifle chamber. If there is a spring-loaded device in the bolt (such as M1 Garand and M14 bolts), the bolt has to be stripped before using the chamber headspace gauge. And, for bolt rifles, the check is to see if the bolt handle lowers easily. Don't force it...

Cartridge headspace gauges are made for setting up resizing dies (or the secondary use of checking case length, using the steps on the other end.) While these are most typically used as a check for "between SAAMI max and SAAMI min length", they can be used with calipers and a case fired in your rifle to adjust the resizing die for a 0.002" reduction in length to shoulder datum.

The difference between "Go" and "No Go" lengths is usually on the order of 0.006" or so, so this is pretty hard to set correctly with the "touch the shell holder and another 1/4 turn" advice. The cartridge headspace gauge lets you set up the resizing die correctly, and easily.

Edit:

The main reason for not using a steel gauge to try to set the resizing die is that it doesn't allow for brass spring-back. Trial and error, gradually increasing the amount of resizing until the cases measure correctly in the gauge, is the procedure.
 
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Ahhhhhhh...
Thanks...
A little "Trial & Error" method on a few empty cases then adjust the die to match the case once it fits perfectly into the cartridge gauge...I presume
 
Yep.

I added another line to my previous reply...same thing you just said.

It is worth noting that "perfectly" is not that easy to define. For bolt-action shooters, they sometimes try for 0.002" less than fired case length, to maximize brass life. On the other hand, gas-rifle shooters generally try for SAAMI minimum, so there is absolutely no resistance when the bolt lugs try to rotate home.
 
I stole this picture and forgot to whom to credit it to:

Wilsongageandheadspacegage.gif

The cartridge case gage on the left, is what you use to set up your sizing dies. The Cartridge case gage will tell you if your case is over length, or under length.

The chamber headspace on the right is what is used to verify rifle chamber headspace. Typically you have three chamber headspace gages, one a "GO" gage, a "No Go", and a field gage.

If your rifle is factory, if the bolt is serialized with the receiver, then you are safe in assuming that the factory set the proper headspace on the rifle chamber before shipping.

It is always worth checking the headspace on military surplus rifles with non matching numbers on bolt and receiver.

It is worth checking on vintage US military firearms. The CMP verifies headspace before shipping, but from an unknown source, headspace checks can be value added. The US military does not serialized the bolt with the weapon. There are a lot of people who swap bolts (for various reasons) of M1's, M1903's, A3's, carbines. Some of these rifles have been through a lot of hands before they get to you.
 
I hear ya...dmazur “Perfectly” probably is not the right word in this case...
All I can say is: I never had this kind of measuring and critical sizing issues with my Sloppy Remington 742. I set up those 30.06 dies, trimmed cases to length and made reloads that always fired.

Thanks for your input here to SalmFire1

I think I’m understanding what I need here now.
I included a pic of my new toy below
 

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The reloader has two ways to go:

1) Set the sizer to touch the shell holder with the press cammed over, even with a slightly work hardened case in the die, properly lubed of course, and hope the die maker got their die right, as well as assuming his chamber is OK.

2) Get their rifles chamber checked, or buy Go & No Go gauges to do it themselves. Buy a case gauge, and, if they want to, a system to measure shoulder setback, including cases fired in their rifle before sizing.

The first way works if everything is OK, and most of the time it is. Gun makers and die makers get it right most of the time.

The second way is much better, and gives us knowledge and control over our reloads.

Excellent posts in a very informative thread.
 
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