32 Colt Positive and yes I stole it

[kjeff50cal]

It was at work monday (at a large sporting goods store) manning the gun-counter when an older gentileman comes up to it. He has a bag in his hand (our store bag), it seems that someone sold him .32 Acp ammo for his .32 Colt Revolver. I informed him the correct ammo was possibly .32 S&W Long and we did not carry it. I told him of a full service gun store that might have the correct ammo.

Oh did I mention that he had said pistol in the bag. I told him the correct procedure to bring firearms into the store and escorted him (as per walmartian rules) to customer service to get his money and and out the door. One hour later he is back at my counter. The gunstore (which prides itself on buying gun Collections <hint>) did not have the right ammo. Why? Because his Colt Police Positive is chambered for .32 Long Colt. .32LC shot a special 'heeled bullet' like a .22 LR and the case is a smaller diameter then .32 S&W Long.

The Customer did not want a gun he could not readilly find ammo for so he offered it to me. I ask how much he wanted out of it... lets just say it was the cost of about 2 boxes of .32 Long ammo. I told him when I got off and we agreed on a meeting place to which I took posession of a Colt Police Positive DA 32 in good condition beside my .38 special Colt Police Positive Special(See Pictires).

 

[esmith]

Ha nice grab. He was too angered to deal with the trouble he had. Hey at least you got a cheap gun.

 

[Old Fuff]

If the barrel is marked Police Positive you have a very early one. If you're interested, post the serial number (located on the frame behind the crane - swing out the cylinder to see it) and I'll try to date it.

The frame appears to be one left over from the earlier Colt New Police line, and it might have New Police markings stamped in a logo behind the cylinder release.

 

[kjeff50cal]

Old Fuff, Yes it does have a frame left over from the New Police and it is a Police Positive a friend of mine at a gunshop who specializes in Colt dates it around 1907, so it is one hundred years young. But if you have another source to pinpoint the date the serial # is 468xx.

 

[Old Fuff]

Colt did not start the Police Positive serial numbers at "1," but rather continued the series originally used to number the New Police model. So Police Positive production officially started in 1907 at serial number 49,501. Your revolver, No. 46,8xx predates that, and is a transitional made on a New Police frame with a new production Police Positive barrel, which apparently preceeded actual Police Positive production. Colt was advertising the Police Positive as early as 1905.

Not very many of those around...

 

[kjeff50cal]

OMG I need a BETTER gunsafe.

 

[Old Fuff]

Of course since the revolver uses a very obsolete and difficult to find cartridge, not to mention the expense if you do find any, the gun is valueless...

 

[tinygnat219]

Ye did well. I picked up one that had been reblued for 150 bucks. The re-blue job was nice though and this thing shoots real purty.

Good grab!

 

[akodo]

Are you sure the gun is chambered for 32 long colt?

My Cartridges of the World by Barnes says that an alternate name for the 32 S&W long is the 32 colt police and 32 colt police positive. Apparently colt just copied the 32 sw long and put on a different weight and shape bullet, and called it their own

Apparently that kind of thing happened a lot. It isn't like today where you can get a ton of different bullet weights and loadings in a caliber, back then it seems there was just ONE type of 32 S&W long, it had X grains of powder and a bullet of type Y and weight Z (and sometimes they would update it) and the company that invented it would name it after themselves.

Then another company would want in on that great cartridge, so they would copy its externals, just jam on another size/weight bullet, and market it as a brand new catridge. They especially didn't like stamping the brand name of another manufacturer on a gun. Remington has no problem stamping "300 winchester magnum" but apparently colt didn't like to stamp smith and wesson on its guns, and vice versa. This is why most rifle chamberings still retain the name of the first company to bring it out (7mm remington mag, etc) where as 38 smith and wesson special was usually stamped 38 special on the barrel of a colt, until we all just started calling it by that name.

 

[Old Fuff]

Are you sure the gun is chambered for 32 long colt?

It's easy to tell. Those chambered in .32 Long Colt have chambers that are bored straight through. Those chambered in .32 Colt New Police (also known as .32 S&W Long) have a step in he chamber in front of the case - which is the same as most revolvers made today except for .22 rimfire.

Colt made a lot of .32 New Police revolvers in .32 L.C., but relatively few Police Poitive models. Smith & Wesson brought out their version (.32 S&W Long) in 1899 and it quickly obsoleated the .32 L.C. Colt then had to respond with their version of the same thing.

 

[kjeff50cal]

Old Fuff, I drove the CS lady at Colt crazy with the serial number and markings on this revolver. It is neither in the New Police Serial range nor in the Police Positive early range . she said it might be a 'parts gun' and asked if it had a tapered barrel ala the Police Positive.... the answer is no. The barrel of this gun is straight.

BTW I also told her about the markings on the butt of the handle, No. 13 was stamped on it. To this she grew excited and put me through to the history/archive department to see about the letter and fees. No one was there but I left my info and number and await their call.

 

[Old Fuff]

Those letters go in the $85.00 ballpark and up...

Unlike the cap & ball revolvers, the Single Action Army, and various Colt/Browning pistols; little research has been done on Colt's early hand-ejector revolvers. Anyway, I'll take a shot at what you have.

In 1897 Colt designed a new revolver specifically for the New York City Police Department. It was then headed by Theodore (Teddy) Roosevelt, who clearly knew his way around handguns. This revolver was based on Colt's New Pocket Model, a .32 / 6-shot with a rounded butt and (usually) a 3 or 3 ½ inch barrel. It was introduced in 1893, chambered in .32 Long Colt, and serial numbered starting at No. 1. To make the NYCPD model Colt lengthened and squared the handle, and lengthened the barrel to 4 inches. It was called the New Police Model.

The New Police Model was manufactured until 1908, at which time – so the story goes – the Police Positive Model was introduced at about serial number 49,500, and replaced it.

The trouble with this is that Colt was advertising the Police Positive as early as 1905. During that year they also introduced a Pocket Positive Model, that was an updated New Pocket Model (that I’ll explain shortly) at serial No. 30,000 – which was a continuation of the New Pocket Model’s serial numbers.

The “Positive” part of the names came from a new hammer block safety that Colt had devised which made it safe to carry the revolver fully loaded with the hammer resting directly behind a loaded chamber - but unable to fire that round no matter how hard the hammer was struck. At the time this was a revolutionary development.

So I believe that during a time period extending from 1905 (serial number approximately 25,000) to 1908 (serial number 49,500) Colt made a number of transitional New Police/Police Positive .32 revolvers, and your gun’s number, 46,8xx fits within that block, and dates from 1907. It would be interesting to pop the sideplate and see if it has the Colt hammer block, that made a revolver a true “Positive.” Otherwise it would be a regular New Police that was still being made at the time.

 

[kjeff50cal]

Thanks again Old Fuff. Sounds like I have a good excuse to get a set of Brownells Screwdrivers.

 

[armoredman]

Carefully! What a find!

 

[Old Fuff]

Yes, do be careful. There is a right and wrong way to remove the sideplate, and doing it wrong could ruin it. Perhaps your friend at the gunshop is experienced at doing this.

An alternative is to go outside in strong vertical sunlight. cock the hammer and then look down into the exposed slot and see if you see a block located below the firing pin slot in the frame. Then slowly lower the hammer and see if this block moves upward as the hammer goes forward. Don't be surprised if the block isn't there, as I'm not sure if it was in those guns that were made on New Police frames.

 

[kjeff50cal]

I was comparing the 2 Colts and indeed the the mechanisms look and act the same so it does have the hammer block system.