.32 H&R Problems

[tango2echo]

I had a little issue with .32 H&R Magnum this morning. I had loaded some 85gr XTP JHP's (.312) with Unique. Starting load was 3.7gr. Brass was Starline, trimmed to length. CCI SPP. Light crimp in grove. OAL was 1.32.

The pistol is a H&R 5 shot that has fired 300-350 rounds uneventfully. Factory and Handloads, from light .32 S&W stuff to mildly hot .32 magnum loads.

I fired the first 5 rounds, which chronographed around 850fps and grouped very well. Recoil was normal, maybe even mild. Opened the cylinder and could not extract the cases. Had to beat them out with a wooden dowel and a small hammer. Primers were completely flat with flow into firing pin hole.

I inspected the cylinder and it seems to be normal. Nothing abnormal. Everything with the gun seems normal.

I went in the house an pulled down the rest of the lot (15rds) and all charges weighed the same 3.7gr. Weighted on two different scales. Could not find any issues with the loading. Not over length, over crimped, primers were correct, powder was correct....

Fired the pistol again with some Federal .32 S&W factory 100gr LRN and then some Federal .32 H&R Mag 100gr XTP's. The magnum load was alittle sticky in the cylinders, but it always has been in the H&R revolver and the SP101.

So,...loaded up the same load again, but this time I used a new can of Unique from a different lot, and Winchester SPP. Brass and bullet remained the same. Light crimp. Double and triple checked length, charge weight, trim length, crimp, etc. Fired 5 rounds in the SP101. Guess what? Same flat primers and wouldn't extract. After allowing the gun to cool for 15 minutes I was able to push the cases out with the dowel, but not with the extractor. Velocity was nearly the same and accuracy was good. Recoil was normal.

I'm at a loss on this one guys. Any ideas?

 

[Kernel]

Oil in the chambers or on the ammo?

Try degreasing them with a oil-free solvent, like paint thinner, right before shooting.

Maybe a build up of carbon in the chamber, from shooting the shorter .32 S&W ammo. That would tend to "grab" the longer Mag brass, making it harder to extract (don't think it would cause the primmers to flatten, though).

Give the chambers a good cleaning with a brass brush on a power drill. Then Degrease.

 

[NCsmitty]

Very strange! You said that the factory magnums seemed to fire and eject normally. Did you chrono the factory load, and if so, was it higher than the sticking reloads velocity?

You're absolutely made sure that the powder scales were zero'd out. Is the Starline brass the correct dimension?



NCsmitty

 

[thunder173]

I load for the .32 H&R as well. I don't have my load book at hand at the moment though. Might try backing down the load a tad and see if the issue persists. 3.7 gr of Unique might be a bit too much. Could be worth a try. Build up of carbon from shooting the shorter .32 S&W could explain the "stickiness",..but the flattened primers seem to be indicating over pressure. Just my .02

 

[rcmodel]

3.7 grains Unique is below a starting load with that bullet in the Lyman #49 manual.
(4.0 start = 14,900 CUP - 4.5 MAX = 18,600 CUP)

Alliant 2002 manual shows 4.1 grains / 85 JHP only giving 18,700 PSI.

I think the most likely explanation is a ring of hard carbon/lead in the chambers from firing the shorter .32 S&W lead bullet ammo that Kernal mentioned.

That will not allow the .32 Mag case necks to expand and release the bullets, which can drive pressure through the roof.

Give both guns chambers a good reaming out with a new bronze bore brush & solvent, chucked up in a cordless drill.

PS: You can even wrap some 0000 Extra Fine steel wool on the brush, which will clean the chambers spotless down to the polished steel factory finish without any risk of harming them.

rc.

 

[thunder173]

That will not allow the .32 Mag case necks to expand and release the bullets, which can drive pressure through the roof.

Bingo. Thanx RCModel. I'd say you just hit that nail on the head!!

Like I said,..I don't have my loading tables at hand,..but it's obvious from the OP's issue that over pressure is the culprit,..and agree that this is very likely the cause if he's loading below max load table.

 

[tango2echo]

Ok. Good responses. I have double and triple check the chambers and ran the bronze bore brush through with the drill anyway. There was no perceptible carbon ring or lead build-up, and I have only fired a handful of the shorter cases in both guns. I don't think the issue is with the guns.

I did chrono the Factory Federal 100gr XTP's and they showed 1075-1090fps. They were alittle sticky, but normal as they always have been. I didn't chrono the S&W's, but they were s l o w. The factory loads showed no signs of pressure and the primers still had a good radius at the edge of the pocket. I believe if the problem was with either gun the factory loads would have also shown some type of pressure sign. Am I right here?

I also check my scales against a 250gr standard and a beam type RCBS 505. Both electronic scales were fine. Also, I've used the first can of Unique to load about 150 rounds of .45LC. I fired some of those this afternoon and they chronographed dead on 875fps and everything was normal.

At this point, I feel I can eliminate the:
scales
powder
primers
both guns

...which leaves me with the brass and bullets.

Any other thoughts and ideas? Where would you look from here?

t2e

 

[NCsmitty]

Try loading some of the fired Federal cases that were in the factory loads. Use the exact same load as before to see if the brass is causing it or not.
Do you have any other bullets that you could try?

Alliant shows 4.7gr of Unique as maximum with 85gr Speer JHP, at their site.



NCsmitty

 

[tango2echo]

Try loading some of the fired Federal cases that were in the factory loads. Use the exact same load as before to see if the brass is causing it or not.
Do you have any other bullets that you could try?

This is my next step. I have the fired Federal brass on hand as well as some nickel plated Winchester brass. I have 85gr and 100gr XTP's, and 80 and 100gr LRN bullets on hand. Tomorrow....

t2e

 

[tango2echo]

Ok, I think I have found the issue, but I do not understand why it would have caused such a spike in pressure. I tumbled and decapped the fired brass and noticed the flashholes on the Starline brass were MUCH smaller than on the federal brass. I don't have a ball mic small enough to measure them, but they are visually about half the size of the Federal factory case flash holes.

I loaded the same exact load in the fired Federal cases and shot them in the SP101, and then in the H&R this morning. No issues at all and the cases fell out of the cylinders. Primers were normal.

So, can someone explain to my how a small flashhole can spike pressures?

t2e

 

[Walkalong]

Very interesting, and I can't explain it. Only theories. You can use a drill bit and open up the flash holes on the offending brass to match those of the Federal brass.

I can't remember which brass I am using for .32 Mag. I had to buy some nickle because that was all I could find at the time. I am going to check and gauge the flash holes when I get home.

I have been shooting a Berrys 90 Gr bullet @ 1.390 with 4.4 Grs Universal Clays and a WSP primer and averaging a little over 1000 FPS from a 4" barrel. No problems with brass being sticky.

This load appears safe in my gun with my load technique. Check data (mine is over Hodgdons data), start low and work up.

 

[Steve C]

I wouldn't think that the difference in flash hole size would make that much if any difference in pressure. I've tested the same loads with .45 acp and various flash hole sizes from the small TZZ to the lager Win Clean and all the average velocities where consistent over the chrono.

One thing I've found with Starline Brass is its thicker than other brass from the major manufacturers. Check the volume of the Starline cases vrs the Federals you have. You can do this by simply filling each with powder and comparing the charge weights. It would be my guess that the Starline cases have a smaller volume and that's driving up pressures. Could be a variation or mistake in manufacture if there's much difference.

 

[tango2echo]

I used some small drill bits this afternoon to measure the flash holes in the Federal and the Starline brass. The Federal brass measured .0775 (largest bit that would fit without cutting) and the Starline measured .0305. (also largest bit). I took five of the Starline cases and opened the flash holes up to .0775 and loaded them with the original load. The Starline brass held about 12% less volume when measured with grains of water. (Filled cases and weighed water poured into pan)

I then fired the five rounds in the H&R revolver. All were sticky and didn't want to extract, but not quite as bad as the very first batch. I was still not able to eject the cases. These I had to let cool about 5 minutes and really whack the ejector rod with the palm of my hand. Three hits and I had all 5 out. The primers were flat with some cratering, but not quiet as bad as the first batch.

So now I'm back to square one. It's not the flash hole, so it must be the brass.

I also fired 5 rounds each of Federal .32H&R Mag 100gr JHP's, PMC .32H&R Mag 85gr JHP's, and 5 Federal .32 S&W 100gr LRN. (BTW, the S&W's only chrono'ed 560fps!) All ejected fine. The magnums were sticky like normal, but I could push the rod with my hand to get them out. The PMC's and S&W's fell out on their own.

Finally, I loaded 3 nickel plated Winchester cases (all I had on hand other than the Federal cases and Starline cases) with the original load to confirm the theory that it was the Starline brass. They shot fine, ejected normally. Primers looked fine. I then reloaded the same three cases and fired again. Same deal. All shot fine and ejected normally.

So, what about this brass is causing a pressure issue? Other than lower internal volume and smaller flash holes it measures about the same as Federal or Winchester. Man, I'm at a loss on this one........Tomorrow I m going to try and find a phone number for Starline and give them a call.

t2e

 

[Walkalong]

I just checked, and my brass is Starline as well. Flasholes look normal, but I haven't measured them.

Very strange. Possibly just a bad batch.

 

[NCsmitty]

The Starline brass held about 12% less volume

Even the smaller case volume doesn't explain a full grain below maximum (per Alliant) exhibiting the pressure signs that were noted.

I guess we await the next chapter.



NCsmitty

 

[joneb]

The Starline brass held about 12% less volume when measured with grains of water.

That seems a bit much.

Starline measured .0305.

That seems to small.

Seems like this brass hasn't been through all the manufacturing steps yet, kinda like my new Chevy pickup that went back to the shop five times

 

[Walkalong]

Here is a pic of one of my Starline .32 Mag brass flasholes. It's around .080.

 

[tango2echo]

That seems to small.

Seems like this brass hasn't been through all the manufacturing steps yet, kinda like my new Chevy pickup that went back to the shop five times

This is what I'm thinking as well. They missed something in the manufacturing.

Your Chevy ONLY went back FIVE times? I wish. Try total top overhall and cam/valve/lifter/heads replacement at 20K miles and more than 30 other trips to the shop. I'm only at 38K now.

I talked to Starline today and they are sending out a new batch of brass. They said to just trash the brass I have now. They didn't want it back

Walkalong, the flashholes in what I have are nowhere near that size. Not even half as large. Those visually look about the same as the Federal cases I have.

t2e

 

[joneb]

Your Chevy ONLY went back FIVE times? I wish. Try total top overhall and cam/valve/lifter/heads replacement at 20K miles and more than 30 other trips to the shop. I'm only at 38K now.

I guess I got a good one
.08" flash hole diameter is pretty common, I rounded a 1/32 hex bit to .081" and use it in a cordless drill to clean out flash holes.

 

[Clark]

This 1993 post is how I understand the threshold of brass sticking in revolvers:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/68ca10110c80e7aa/f002ce69fa01e631

With the 32 S&W Long, I have found it necessary to work up in 0.1 gr increments, not 1 gr increments.

The wimp load to good load to sticky load transition is very close.

Someone sold me a Taurus 357 mag that has rough chambers.
I have to down load it to 38 special so the cases will not stick.
No wonder his sold it so cheap.

 

[tango2echo]

With the 32 S&W Long, I have found it necessary to work up in 0.1 gr increments, not 1 gr increments.

I should hope so, as there is less than .4gr difference between starting and max loads with some powders.

t2e

 

[tango2echo]

Received brass from Starline today, only it was 10MM and not .32 H&R. After calling them they said they would reship the .32 H&R brass.

 

[Walkalong]

Bummer. More waiting.