.327 Magnum, the next big thing?

[MoreCowBell]

I have a new (to me) Model 65 to go alongside my NIB 442. Is there a 357 load that is preferable for HD use to the Cor-Bons I have for the Airweight? Or just stay with the 125 gr JHPs in 38 spcl?
Or something else reasonably findable and not extravagantly spendy?
Pros and cons on 38 +Ps vs 357 mag.
You guys is da men! And Women I spose, can't really tell from most of the monikers.
mcb

 

[ugaarguy]

Or something else reasonably findable and not extravagantly spendy?
Pros and cons on 38 +Ps vs 357 mag.

Fixed sight S&W revolvers, like your model 65, generally have the sights factory regulated for 158 grain loads. You might take your 65 to the range and shoot both light & heavy .38 Special loads to see how close the POI is to the POA with different bullet weights. If you go with .357 Mag loads stay away from anything under 140 grains since those higher velocity loads are known to crack the forcing cone on K Frames.

For HD I like the much lower flash & blast of .38s as compared to .357s. Your chosen 125gr Cor-Bon 38s should be fine in your 65, but run a few rounds through the gun to see how well it likes them.

Alternately the Remington 158 grain LSWCHP, part number R38S12, also known as "The FBI Load" is a good choice. It ships in 50 round boxes, and isn't terribly expensive. It's old tech that works great, so it's far from exotic. On top of all that I've never met a K Frame that didn't like the load.

Overall, finding a load that's accurate and controllable in your gun is more important than how high or low tech the slug is.

 

[MoreCowBell]

Oops, I bought a box of 125 gr JHP 357s and shot them at the range tonight. I wouldn't have thought anything would hurt a 357 mag except maybe some super heavy handloads. These shot about like 158 gr FMJ do in the Airweight
I also shot some 148 gr TCJ. I don't know what TCJ means but they look like copper wadcutters. They shot very mild.
I also got some 129 gr +P Federal Hydra-shok in 38 sp. Those and the Cor-Bons seemed about like the TCJ 38s compared to the 357s.

I don't know exactly what 'how well it likes them' means. I didn't shoot straight enough (I was shooting fairly rapid at 10yds) to notice much accuracy difference. The 38s were a good bit milder in recoil but but the mags weren't really aggravating.

Thanks for your insight ugaar, especially about the hi vel 357s. I'll go light on them.
What I was more after in my question is what's the difference in impact, penetration, shock etc. In short what is going to hurt someone the most and quickest if I have to shoot a BG?
And I guess in addition if the high velocity SD rounds are out for 357 magnum, then what exactly are the strong points of the 357 vs the 38? Hunting? Longer range? Shooting out tires?
One more question: The FBI loads to which you referred are for 38 spcl right? Just guessing from the part number.
So I'm not really hearing of anything in 357 mag I should be considering for SD/HD, eh?

And finally an apology. Sorry for the long-winded post and sorry I just noticed this thread is supposed to be about .327s. I read the post last night and the bulk of it referred to 357 so my brain transposed.

Thanks ugaar and anyone else that has insightful info to add.
b

 

[.38 Special]

Seems to me that almost all of us shoot our handguns at paper, beer cans, and pine cones.

And all of our handguns achieve the objective of making holes in paper, beer cans, and pine cones.

Thus "good" and "bad" are concepts that exist primarily in our minds. We shoot a big magnum and say to ourselves "Yeah! I'm really accomplishing something!". Or we shoot little popguns and say, "Well, it goes 'bang' and hits stuff, I suppose, but..."

I haven't shot one yet, so will withhold judgment. But I'll bet it makes holes in paper, beer cans, and pine cones as well as anything. And yeah, I'll bet it's loud.

 

[papajohn]

At this point I'm thinking there's not a whole lot more anyone can say about the 327 until somebody actually gets shot with one, and the database of one-shot stops (or lack thereof) begins.

As for light-bullet 357 loads and forcing cones, yes, they can do damage, but it's not automatic. I think any bullet weight over 140 grains should be fine, 357 or 38, and the 145-grain Silvertip comes to mind as a pretty good defensive load. Not overly violent, but better than any 38 load, +P or not.

I carry Speer Gold Dots at work, since I'm restricted to 38 ONLY. So it makes sense for me to carry them in my off-duty and house guns so chambered. I've tested a bunch of bullets in Duxseal, and they were by far the best of the bunch. Hardly scientific, but it told me what I wanted to know about expansion, penetration, and weight retention. They're not outrageously expensive, compared to some. I've tested them in every caliber I shoot, (38, 40, 44 Spl and 45ACP) and they are consistently the best performers. These are some 38 and 44 slugs I recovered from assorted media.



VERY consistent performers. You could do a lot worse. Hope this helps.

Papajohn

 

[ugaarguy]

I also shot some 148 gr TCJ. I don't know what TCJ means but they look like copper wadcutters. They shot very mild.

TCJ is Total Copper Jacket, which is just another way of saying Full Metal Jacket.

I don't know exactly what 'how well it likes them' means. I didn't shoot straight enough (I was shooting fairly rapid at 10yds) to notice much accuracy difference. The 38s were a good bit milder in recoil but but the mags weren't really aggravating.

How well it likes them - how well the gun groups shooting a particular load. Some guns just group better with certain bullet weights.

Thanks for your insight ugaar, especially about the hi vel 357s. I'll go light on them.
What I was more after in my question is what's the difference in impact, penetration, shock etc. In short what is going to hurt someone the most and quickest if I have to shoot a BG?

Forum member JE223 owns & maintain the excellent ballistic gel test site www.brassfetcher.com. Take a look at the various .357 & .38 loads he's tested.

And I guess in addition if the high velocity SD rounds are out for 357 magnum, then what exactly are the strong points of the 357 vs the 38? Hunting? Longer range? Shooting out tires?

Strong points of the .357 are that even with 158 grain bullets you're still getting very high velocity. If an attacker is turned sideways and you have to shoot through an arm to get the bullet in his chest, if he's trying to use light cover, etc. the .357 is generally going to punch through better than a .38.

One more question: The FBI loads to which you referred are for 38 spcl right? Just guessing from the part number.

Yes, they're a .38 +P

So I'm not really hearing of anything in 357 mag I should be considering for SD/HD, eh?

For the low light and enclosed spaces of a home I like the lower flash & blast of a .38, should, Lord forbid, I have to use it. (I actually prefer a long gun & ear muffs for HD, but we can discuss that in another thread.) For SD factors like heavy winter clothing or would sway me toward a .357.

Overall I wouldn't get hung up on the load you choose. Just find something the gun shoots accurately, and that you're comfortable shooting. Using the gun proficiently is the most important thing.

 

[MoreCowBell]

OK, uga, that really helps. I'm starting to get the hang of it. You've given me lots to chew on. If you run across a thread that further enlightens this subject please PM me.

For now it'll just be practice practice practice. I probably won't ever load magnum except for a camp pistol when I'm in bear country. We don't really have heavy winter clothing around here but I do some 4wd and camping where the little black bears live.
mcb

 

[MoreCowBell]

"as for light-bullet 357 loads and forcing cones, yes, they can do damage, but it's not automatic. I think any bullet weight over 140 grains should be fine, 357 or 38, and the 145-grain Silvertip comes to mind as a pretty good defensive load. Not overly violent, but better than any 38 load, +P or not."
Thanks for that PJ. That's also helpful. I'll try some 145 gr Silvertip when I can find some. Seems like since it IS a 357 I should profit from the extra power if I can shoot it straight. If the bullet expands well over-penetration shouldn't really be a problem eh? I mean I'm thinking: Two holes for the price of one.
b
As a matter of interest: How will I know if I've damaged the forcing cone; obvious crack?, extra side blast? blows up in my face?
And is this a major repair job if it happens.
Just thought I'd ask.

 

[Art Eatman]

Thread drift is a way of life, but let's drift back to the .327, okay?

Art

 

[anharmyenone]

Gunbroker has .327 stuff

Gunbroker has both Ruger SP101 and Charter Arms for auction in .327. Personally I would get the Ruger, but that is just me. There is also some.327 ammo on there too (a little bit overpriced). For ammo, ableammo still has .327 hollowpoints in stock, just not the softpoint practice ammo.

I have read online where several people have been surprised by how much recoil they experienced shooting .327 and sold the gun, but none of them mentioned getting the Hogue grip. I didn't like shooting .327 either until I got the Hogue grip. If not for that grip, I would have sold mine too.

Your mileage may vary. Your tastes may vary.

 

[papajohn]

I haven't been online much to read about those trading in the guns over recoil issues, but it doesn't surprise me. How a handgun feels when fired has almost as much to do with gas recoil as it does with bullet weight. Anything that operates at higher pressures is belching more gas out behind the bullet, adding to the recoil. Despite what the ammo-makers would love us to believe, there is still no free lunch, and there is no way to bend the laws of physics. But we keep trying!

I'm still waiting for my handheld, easily-concealed Plasma-Ray Phaser.

Papajohn

 

[bunnielab]

I'm still waiting for my handheld, easily-concealed Plasma-Ray Phaser

Ssssssssh. Not so loud dude. Meet me behind the the old Miller place at dusk and we can make the deal then.


But really, I want the .327mag to succeed. I have a fondness for the .32long and would love to be able to buy a revolver that shoots it in addition to a more "serous" round.

Plus, I would think that if one can get a 110g bullet at 1400fps from a 3" barrel an 18" carbine barrel should be able to get those suckers up to around 2000. And if the hand loading data isnt too watered down maybe around 2300. This is all wishful thinking and extrapolation from .357 mag data, but I remain hopeful.

I dont know why I want to try and turn a marlin 1895 into a varmint gun, but I do.

 

[Sturmgewher]

little black bears live

If a "little" black bear is sitting on your chest eating your head, does it still qualify as little? Size, while quantative in the sense of measurement becomes quite subjective depending on your point of view, say from beneath a bear! Just the observation of someone who does not have to worry about bears, thank God.

 

[anharmyenone]

Charter Arms .327

There's a new thread over at Shooter's Forum on the Charter Arms 4" barrell .327 magnum. William Iorg reports on some tests he and his wife did with it. They seem to get some nice velocity with that 4 inch barrell. I wish someone would make a lever gun for .327.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?p=349232

 

[munk]

I say yes to the lever gun. A little semi auto carbine too.

>>>>>>>>>>>

I wonder how Federal and Ruger did their marketing research for this round? The resistance amongst the shooting community is strong. ( I haven't seen this much resentment or dismissal out of hand since the 41 mag was made, and there's a bigger niche to fill for the 327 than the 41 ever had.) Given that- why did Ruger and Federal go ahead?

No, the 327 is not a 357 I could understand the dismissals and jokes if this were yet one more 30 calibre magnum rifle round... But its not, and there is a place for a revolver that is light to carry, simple to use, has less recoil than the 357 and can do the defense thing adequately. Factory loads for the 38 Special are not special- they're weak and not even up to the Plus P ratings SAAMI established. So for one not wanting a true powerful revolver like a 357, 41, or 44, there might be this new 327. There are a whole host of new people out there trying shooting sports for the first time. This might be a good round for a beginner, or just someone unwilling to invest a lifetime of interest and effort into the shooting sports.
And it would make a great trail gun should Ruger ever put a longer barrel on a revolver so chambered.

The most popular chambering at the begining of the former century, in one of the most popular handguns of all time, the Colt single action, was the 32/20; not the 45 Colt as many might surmise. It was fun to shoot, effective on small game, and used for self defense. The 327 puts the 32/20 in a small package. That's it. It's not to replace the 357. It's not 'better' than the 357

I doubt it'll make it. 'We' are those buying guns, and 'We' not impressed. Too damn bad. Many of the guns 'we' didn't like are great;- the 358 Winchester, 41 mag, 35 Rem, 32 HR, 10mm, 35 Whelen....

When the 40 SW came out I wasn't enthused; it wasn't the wonderful 10mm. But it could be chambered in smaller packages, and many more people could be taught to shoot them comfortably over the full house 10mm.....

I think it was Layne Simpson who once opined that if the shooting public had taken to the 375 Winchester, we'd have a 40 calibre on the 30/30 case by now: Winchester had the plans on the board. But we didn't, and it never happened. That was the last 'woods cartridge' the manufacturers took a chance on giving to us.

Maybe there won't be any new revolver handgun cartridges, other than picking up crumbs from the 500 Smith near the top of the power game...here we are, revolver fans, and we're killing the first new offering in a long time to come our way. The 500 made it, the 480 dwindled, and that's all she wrote for us.

munk

 

[peyton]

It is the chicken or the egg argument. A good platform (revolver, lever, auto will help a good cartridge, and also the opposite. I love the .32's, I do not own a .38/.357. If I can not find ammo it will kill this off but without good platforms to shoot it out of the ammo will sink. Think .45GAP or even the .25ACP. I like the versatility the .327 will give. I have been buying S&w 631/331/332's because in the .32 H&R caliber because I do not see s&w making a .327. I look forward to getting out of the sandbox and handling the charter arms Patriot .327. PS It is plenty hot and dusty in Baghdad right now!!

 

[Evyl Robot]

AirForceShooter said:
Quote:
Let's see if S&W climbs on the wagon.
The gun and caliber are interesting.
That's probably the one endorsement that would establish the .327 Magnum as a viable caliber. But I suspect S&W will not act until some other revolver and/or rifle manufacturers jump on the bandwagon.

...still didn't help the .41 Mag much...

./Michael

 

[munk]

The 41 had a very small slice of the pie to carve. What exactly, is there for a double action revolver between the .22 and the 38? There's a .312 that never really caught on in the larger world outside the shooting club, and not all through the club, either.

Are those of us who shoot revolvers happy enough with the 38's that nothing is needed below?

And I too am one of those people who buy big, 41, 44 or 45 Colt.

So that's it; double action revolver shooters can choose the .22, and the next stop up is the 38, nothing else is neccesary or wanted inbetween? Very strange. For those who insist upon a .30, you can scrounge up a Ruger BlkHk in .30 carbine.
Maybe the revolver really is dead. It has the accepted territory and no other is neccesary nor wanted.

Maybe that's the way it should be. I'm just wondering if that's really what people want- nothing else. It may be that straight walled cartridge's development is built around having enough diameter to produce sufficient capacity for a range of bullet weights. The smaller the case opening, the narrower the choices become in bullet weights and velocities/performance. A weak hand held tool's primary advantage is the diameter of the case.

The 327 was not given the same case length as the other traditional magnum rounds..and that probably has to do with the platform it was built around.
Is there any place for say, a .275 small game revolver round? You'd want it long enough to stick enough powder in it do accomplish something worth doing. We and the public are letting these 30's die; why? Because a handloaded 38 can do the same job? So can a handloaded 44, or 475.

Don't bother us with the small fry??


munk

 

[gripper]

Isn't Charter Arms offering a 2.2 and a 4 inch barreled revolver in this caliber???If their quality control( and durability issues ) has/have improved;they may have opened the gates for other makers who "see the writing on the wall" RE this caliber and possible applications.

 

[Stainz]

Historically, the .32 H&R Magnum just didn't make it. It started life when the .32 S&WL was still a recent memory (1984). The .327 Magnum followed too closely the near industry wide demise of the .32 H&RM. I will restate the obvious - it was an inexpensive way for Ruger to introduce a new caliber offering, requiring only ~1/8" deeper reaming - and restamping the caliber - on existing 3" .32M SP-101s. Their fancy 'cowgirl' CAS-style adverts for the SSM (.32 SS) can't be faulted - the short BH-style and BHG .32s don't have the room within the grip for the hammer strut lock, so don't expect to see them back.

Since this thread started, I have divested myself of my .32 Rugers and ammo/reloading supplies - and even the dies. The .32 was fun here - and a 100gr JHP (XTP) making 1,186 fps was quite potent for many beasties. I just wanted, and had to fund, another .38/.357 Magnum purchase (627 Pro).

Believe me, a .38 is a lot more fun to shoot. The ammo and reloading supplies are cheaper, more widely available, and varied. Of course, the oversized chambers on the Ruger .32s meant more working the brass as well as difficult spent case extraction. The cheesy windage-only adjustable sight on the SP101 doesn't win it high marks, either.

Yesterday found me plinking away at several types of targets, with everything from wimpy .38s to mild .357Ms with my new 627 Pro - a definite keeper. I, for one, do not miss my .32s. Think it through before you break that piggy bank for a .327 Magnum. Of course, try to find the ammo, too.

Stainz