357/44 mag 4227 Question

[sean1129]

Hi--

I've been loading for a while, primarily for the 38/357, .460 mag, and .30-06 calibers. However, 2400 is quite hard to come by (it's not been available for about 2-2.5 years), so I'm exploring other options that are readily available (for magnum pistol, not the '06!) I guess what I'm saying is that concerning the the questions that follow, I know 2400 is the preferred powder for these (H110 is also hard to come by) calibers, but I'm just trying to branch out and make what I have of 2400 last.

First question--I've got several test loads for the 357 (158 grain WNFP/SWC is my primary bullet) loaded with IMR 4227, both magnum and standard primers. The weather has prevented the testing. However, the first time I shot 4227 I thought the revolver was especially dirty and the cases were often hard to extract as a result (on the starting level charges per my Lyman--no other signs of high pressure existed). My revolver was not especially clean to begin with, so I'm starting from scratch on my testing. Question: does anyone have experience with this powder being 'dirty,' and are there any possible solutions? I've got several manuals that recommend mag/std primers, so I'm going to test this out for myself. Since the weather's bad, I thought I see if anyone else has some advice.

Second question: I'm about to acquire a model 29 (44 mag), which means I'll be loading for this caliber as well--same issue on the powder. So, does anyone have 4227 experience with the 44 to say that it's better/worse suited for the 44 or 357? My go-to hunting round for my .460 Encore pistol uses 4227, and I've never had any 'dirty powder' issues--so I'm not sure if it's a pressure thing or what...

Again, I'm going to test all of these variables for myself, but I thought I'd see if anyone out there has any experience I can add to my repertoire.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Jlr2267]

In my experience 4227 is dirty and, at the low end, leaves unburned powder (in 44mag especially). I had the same extraction problems on the low end...it is probably residue getting between the case and cylinder walls (low pressure loads). Try loading it up a bit and see if cleans up.

Check your manuals, but I think w/4227 in 44 mag, before you get to an overpressure situation you'll be compressing powder.

FWIW, I found 4227 to give excellent accuracy and consistency at the top end. I do not particularly like the mess, but if it's what I could find, I'd not hesitate to use it.

Edit: I use it mostly with hardcast lead bullets.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

In my experience with 4227 in 357 and 45 Colt my best results have been with magnum primers and lightly compressed loads. The results have been cleaner burning (but still dirty) and amazing accuracy.

 

[Steve51]

I have used IMR4227 in .44 magnum loads. Very accurate in my Henry .44 magnum but also dirty (as already mentioned). Pretty sure my loads were slightly compressed (used Lyman 49th ed. data for my loads). I have also used unique and 2400 in .44 magnum. Bullets were all over the place with unique from the Henry but 2400 worked fine in the Henry. I also shoot a Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 magnum but I am not good enough with it to determine how accurate each powder is. My preferred powder for .44 magnum at this time is 2400 but have no problems using IMR4227.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Hey, when you can't get powder sometimes you have to compromise but IMO 4227 isn't all that bad. I feel 4227 isn't the best fit with the .357 Magnum but works very well with the .44 Magnum and especially with the .460 Magnum. You will do fine with 4227 in all 3 and like said above, you can reduce the dirty properties of 4227 by keeping the pressures up.

I was at Cabela's in PA today and they had a shelf full of 4227 for $26.99 but no W296/H110, 2400 or AA#9.

 

[sean1129]

Quote: [I was at Cabela's in PA today and they had a shelf full of 4227 for $26.99 but no W296/H110, 2400 or AA#9.]

Exactly! I might be able to get to the range today, as it turns out. I've about 8 different loads to test, so I'll post results later this afternoon, especially for anyone else out there wanting to use 4227 for the reasons listed above.

 

[bocefus78]

My super red hawk and marlin 1894 (both 44mag) love some 4227 under a 240gr bullet. Both xtreme plated and xtp's shoot great. The powder kernels is sop for that powder. The accuracy it gives far outweighs the extra cleaning time.

 

[sean1129]

Just got back from the range--much testing today!! For anyone else out there trying to do as I've done, here it is:

Gun: 6'' Smith 686
Bullet: 158 gr. cast (WNFP, no gas check, BSL bullets, 18 brinell).
Range: indoor
Data: I used the 155 gr data from my Lyman 49th, as my bullets weigh closer to this than the 160 (next weight with available data). Min: around 12, max 15.2 grains. I testedthe in .5 gr. increments from 12-15 gr, magnum and standard primers for each (and kept a close log of all).

Bottom line comment 1: 14-15 grains produced the easiest extraction, and the least amount of unburnt powder residue (hardly any left). Accuracy is excellent (.5'' consistently, POI is slightly lower (.5-.75'' lower than 38 special POI).

Bottom line comment 2: Now that I know what I know, I'm going to load 50 rounds of 14.5 gr. both mag and std primer. I'll be able to see if there are any noticeable differences of extraction, accuracy, etc. With only 5 rounds for each test group today, I was really splitting hairs with the 14-15 gr. charges, mag and std primers. So it MIGHT be a wash. More info to come on this.

Bottom line comment 3: The load data for 160 gr cast bullet goes up to 17, which is compressed. I'll re-inspect my brass for pressure signs, but I might test some 16 gr. loads as well (since my conclusion seems to be that pressure increase is what 4227 needs to be fully functional)

Hopefully this is helpful to someone else out there. I might be able to test more next weekend. Stay tuned for any interested!

 

[Eb1]

4227 is my favorite powder for .44 Magnum. I just use the listed 22.0 grain for a 240 grain LSWC, and I don't have any issues.

 

[sean1129]

4227 is my favorite powder for .44 Magnum. I just use the listed 22.0 grain for a 240 grain LSWC, and I don't have any issues.

In my Lyman, for 44 mag it shows they used a standard primer. For your 22 gr. load--were you using standard or mag primers?

 

[Eb1]

Standard Large Pistol Primers.

Mostly CCI primers, but I have used Winchester and Federal as well. When using Federal I still used Large Pistol Primers. With Winchester I think they are one in the same.

Almost all are shot in Winchester Brass, and they give very good accuracy, and the recoil is very smooth versus 2400 or H110 from my 5.5" SBH.
I can say that I have more unburnt 2400 than any other powder I have used, but 2400 works best for me with 240 grain XTPs or jacketed bullets, and use 4227 for lead projectiles.

The only time I use Magnum Primers is when I am using H110 or Ramshot powders.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

For 357 mag, 160 gr RNFP, magnum primers. I load 16.1 gr 4227 for drilling holes in paper. Going up to 17.0 gr yielded slightly worse in accuracy, but recoil went up. In 357 it is difficult to put enough powder in the case to create an overpressure situation.

 

[Eb1]

I have to say from my experience that magnum primers are not needed with a proper roll crimp, or crimp of your choice. At least not in my .44 Mag using IMR4227.

I do have powder that isn't brunt with 2400 unless I use a magnum primer, but then accuracy falls off, and this is of course with jacketed bullets only.

I shoot Ramshot for some lead projectile loads, and I do use Federal Magnum Primers with those loads. If I don't you have a mess on your hands. Almost like loading on a 550b when you don't seat a primer. hahah

 

[sean1129]

All excellent info--thanks a million.

 

[CLP]

4227 was the only magnum powder available in my LGS a few weeks back, so I worked up a load for my 44 cal cast Lyman Devastator which, when lubed and gas checked, weights ~267 +/- 1 grainish. The numbers below were from groups of ten and they all had a heavy crimp because of the many things people have already stated about 4227.

21 grains: Range 1055-1105fps, Avg 1083fps, ES=50, SD=16

22 grains: Range 1113-1152fps, Avg 1135fps, ES=39, SD=12

23 grains: Range 1178-1202fps, Avg 1194fps, ES=24, SD=8

24 grains: Range 1201-1266fps, Avg 1249fps, ES=65, SD=19

Now I was shooting groups of ten, and naturally they're going to be larger than five-shot groups, and significantly larger than those folks who shoot three-shot groups *cough *cough. More importantly, I was shooting over chrony so besides hitting the target I was trying not to shoot my equipment. I was shooting off a sandbag for a rest. The point of mentioning all that is the 23 grain load didn't appear to be as accurate on the target compared to the 24 grain load, but I don't know how they'd compare if I was solely focused on the target. Also, I saw either unburnt or residual burnt bits of powder in the 21 and 22 grain loads but not the 23 and 24 grain loads- again, something that was very consistent with what people tend to say about 4227. I have most of a pound of 296 left but am a little hesitant about using it until I know that I can replace what little I have. That's fine by me since I get to explore a new powder (like Green Dot for a cast 230gr LRN in 45 ACP). I'll likely work it up further between 23-24gr, but it'll be a while since I'm going to need to cast more Devastators. Besides, I want to see how well 4227 works with 240 and 300 grain XTPs.